Around The Horn 1.02

Okay guys, it's time for another week of Around The Horn! You know the rules, so let's get this thing on the road. :happy0144: Week 2 PanelBluffCityBlueCB4AllStarPrimeTimeRaptorFan#1Topic #1There are still ongoing trade talks involving Kevin Garnett and a few potential teams that are interested in the All-Star veteran, but a rumor has surfaced about KG possibly wanting to stay in Minnesota. Teammate Rashad McCants stated today that he believes KG will be in a Timberwolves uniform next season. Although the team has not made a big effort to bring in key veterans to help Garnett, they have been drafting some nice young prodigies that may grow into future stars. So even though this is just a very small rumor, what are the chances KG returns to Minnesota for the '07-08 season? Is there any way Kevin is starting to have second thoughts about moving now that the team has upgraded their roster with young talents such as Corey Brewer, Chris Richard, and Randy Foye?

Right now, its not in McHales hands but in Bostons and possibly other teams like the Mavericks or LA. I think theres a slight chance he gets traded. Boston might go ahead and say lets win now and trade Ratliff and Jefferson for KG. Which if they did so, Boston would easily by a top 4 team in the East and one of my favorites to make it to the NBA Finals. I personaly dont think hes going to be traded. I dont think Minny and LA are ever going to work anything out. The Mavericks have something very special going on right now with Howard, why would they trade him for a player whos position is already taken by Dirk? Phoenix has already dismissed the possibility of trading Amare for KG...which if they did trade Amare for KG, Steve Kerrs status as an GM would shoot wwaayy down in my eyes. The only realistic possibility besides being sent to the Lakers is Boston, and KG has already said he doesn't want to go to Boston. Even if he has changed his mind since Boston acquired Ray Allen, I dont think Boston is ready to sacrifice their future by sending Jefferson off. I dont see him leaving...

+3 for BluffCityBlue, I have to agree with you... there isn't much a team can offer without giving up someone who is near or at the same level as KG. Plus, the T-Wolves could sneak into the postseason this year as an 7 or 8 seed so his situation is as bad as some think.

Right now the twolves are in a rebuilding process, it would make more sense for them to trade him. But even if they do keep garnett(which I believe they will) they have some strong young talent there now. While their frontcourt still needs some tuning they have guys like Randy Foye(who could end up a very nice young scoring pg similar to d-wade) Corey Brewer( a lockdown guy with solid offense very similar to artest when he first came out) and rashad mccants a raw talent with great potential. That being said I still cant see them as an 8 seed even yet, they have no player even competetent at center, they lack a true sf and are basically overly stacked at sg. If they trade KG to a team like the Lakers not only could they add a potential allstar center(Bynum who averages 8/6 in a limited role and may break out next season),Lamar Odom who is still a great player but more of a vet to have your young guys learn from and not to take on a role in contension but can create which is what those young players need and several first round picks. Right now KG has a few good years left but he's just one player, in the NBA the goal is to build a team and with KG they will possibly win 30-40 games but they will have no direction which is where they have been since they expanded into the NBA.

+2 for PrimeTimeI think the T-Wolves are, if anything, putting themselves deeper into a hole of problems by trading KG. If they think Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom are going to fix there lineup, they're wrong IMO. The only way I see Garnett leaving is if PHX sends Stoudemire or BOS sends Jefferson... Minnesota is that desperate to get him out of town so they can stand to wait for the right offer.

I guess we'll wait for RaptorFan and CB4AllStar to return and then we'll close today's topic.

Well if you look at everything, you have to look at things from a KG's perspective and from the Minnesota organization perspective. Looking at it from Kevin Garnetts perspective you see that he wants to win now and win now to him means right now. So he is very much considering being traded. But for nearly the first time in his career, he has potential decent help. He has young talent, and he has players that could form a solid core. Something he was deprived for most of- if not all his career. Now leaving Minnesota would totally change up the picture, he would have to fit in with new teammates, adjust to a new system, and adjust to the new city and the lifestyle, its just to big of a change. On top of all that, the added pressure of making a change immediately would be immense, because he doesn't know if he will land a lottery team or contender. So for him to make a push to leave, actually leave, then not work out again with his teammates would deeply deeply hurt his value to a franchise. Ill give you an example. Marbury left the Phoenix Suns for a considerable amount of cash following a very solid year averagin 22 pts and 8 assists. The Knicks team, who earlier that year, finished bottom of the Atlantic division, needed help to get back into the playoffs. Later on, Marbruy averaged around the same, leading them to a playoff birth. However, the following years he missed the playoffs each year, and as you see now, his stock has dropped, is seen as a cancer, and will not get 20 million dollars for a team again. Now im not saying Kevin Garnett is no Marbury, but the same thing applies, if he gets traded, he eithier HAS to win from then on, or his career goes down the drain. By staying with Minnesota he gets to be part of a rebuilding process as the leader, who is able to help rookies make the transition to the NBA and provid veteran help. He gets the value of young youth in the NBA- something most teams dont have, his team has a future now, which was something you couldnt say for the Wolves 2 years ago. With the right trades, Fa signings, KG and the Wolves are in the perfect position to make a run in that Western conferance.Now to look at it from the organizations perspective; The Wolves cant trade Garnett because they know they will never get the same amount of value or the same caliber player back. The only thing they can gaurantee is that they will get a younger player, something too much a risk to gamble with especially being in the lottery two years in row. There is little time for the organization because fans will only take losing so much longer, most teams improve after two years in the lottery, for them not to after this, raises alot of questions from fans and the owners alike. The best thing to do is to keep KG before he makes a serious decline, give the rookies experience, and let them take over after he leaves. By then, Brewer and Foye would have developed as players who can take care of a franchise. Once again, make some minor adjustments, and you could have a solid rotation around Foye and Brewer as the core. The main point is that trading Garnett you would lose value, take more time developing, and in that sense, lose valuable time, interest, and money into rebuilding a franchise. Face it, if the Wolves make lottery for the 3rd year in a row, fans will reconsider who they're cheering for, KG will leave for sure then, and you would have to rebuild all over again, putting them in lottery further more. Simply, losing KG will gaurantee the return of lottery land, they cant afford, simply because they will never get someone near his true caliber and value.

I gotta give RaptorFan some big points, +5 to be exact. I agree with everything you said.. and your facts proved it all. :worthy: I'll assume CB4AllStar is busy today so I'll give him a break, but he will have some serious catching up to do if he isn't back by tomorrow. Alright guys, thanks for your posts, I don't think there is much disagreement on this topic so I'll see you all tomorrow.

I'm going to keep this short and sweet. Kevin Garnett will be playing for the TimberWolves next year. I'm almost sure of it. There isn't alot to discuss about this topic, so I'll just write my opinion in a short paragraph or two. Okay, first of all it's been pretty obvious that KG has wanted out for the past year or two. Kevin McHale and his staff have been exploring offers for a long time, and I havn't even heard of anything remotely serious. And I don't think McHale has even seen an offer that he's really considered so far. It's obvious that his asking price is very high for Garnett because the guy is a superstar and people are going to throw out some nice talents in their offers towards him. It hasn't seemed like a trade has ever been close with garnett. Yes, there have been rumours of him going to Boston, New York, Chicago, LA, and all that. But those rumours are just dumb in my opinion. Notice that those are some of the biggest media coverage cities in the NBA, and there's always going to be very stupid rumours in cities like that. Okay, my second point is this. How often do superstar big men get traded when they are still in their prime. Okay, maybe Kevin is not exactly in his prime. He's getting a little old now, yeah. But the guy's still throwing out numbers all over the place; he's still going nuts with his overall stats, and he's obviously a defensive stud and also a team player. So let's look at some of the greatest big men from the 80's to present so we can pretty much look at today's NBA. Because if we looked way back, it wouldn't be accurate because the way deals are made and such are so much different nowadays.Karl Malone - stayed with Utah until his VERY LAST season in the NBAHakeem Olajuwon - stayed with the Rockets until his VERY LAST season in the NBAPatrick Ewing - stayed with the Knicks until his productivity ran outTim Duncan - Has played his entire career with the Spurs to dateKevin McHale - Celtics liferShaquille O'Neal - Rare exception. But there were other reasons to his trades. He wanted out of Orlando, and in L.A. he feuded with Kobe Bryant.Charles Barkley - Another rare exception. This guy had a ton of attitude as a player, so that might have been a cause for his tradesDavid Robinson - Spurs liferDirk Nowitzki - Has played his entire career with Dallas.So there are some examples. So you can see that superstar big men rarely ever get traded unless they feud with other players or coaches or they have some attitude or chemistry problems. The example is even more evident in today's NBA. The Big 3 of Power Forwards have all been with their respected teams for their entire careers. Tim has been with SA, Dirk with Dallas, and Kevin with Minnesota.So that's my other reasoning. Kevin is just too valuable to the Timberwolves franchise, so I think unless he absolutely refuses to play and demands a trade, he is going to stay there; atleast through next season. Because if he really expresses his displeasure next year, then he'll probably go eventually. But not this soon. No way.So those are the main reasons why I think all this trade talk is mumbo jumbo. If you asked Kevin McHale himself, he'd probably say that he's not seriously considering a trade option currently.You've gotta also look at the young guys he's getting now. Randy Foye and Corey Brewer are going to be very good players, and you've got to bet that he's atleast optimistic about their development and how they can help the team in a year or two. Another small point is that when he's already been with a team for this long, he is so comfortable with an organization. I don't know if he would really want to start over again with a new team when he's already been with the T-Wolves for so long.Okay, I guess I did take this a little long...

I'll give you 3 for that, KG is the face of the franchise and it would be just dumb to let him go... I think all of us here feel his should stay with the T-Wolves. Okay, that'll do it for our first topic, see you tomorrow afternoon.TotalsRaptorFan#1- 5BluffCityBlue- 3CB4AllStar- 3PrimeTime- 2

Topic #2Warriors head coach Don Nelson is reportedly looking for a new contract after leading the team into the post-season for the first time in 13 years last April. The San Francisco Chronicle reports that Nelson's representative John O'Conner met with team president Robert Rowell last week to discuss the issue. O'Conner stated that Nelson is "very conflicted" and that he exhausted himself last season like he has never done before. Nellie did turn 67 in May. So guys, Nelson does have two years left on his contract which is worth $6.2 million, but does he deserve a big bonus for his miracle playoff run last season? Or, is this just a plea for more money to fight off Mavericks owner Mark Cuban who is suing Nelson for $6.5 million of deferred compensation for his time with Mavericks, as well as accusing him of using "inside information" to beat Dallas in the first round of the playoffs.

btw guys, your posts dont have to be 5 paragraphs and half the page, all you have to do is get your point across...you still have 9 more posts...The average salary of the NBA coach is somewhere between $3mill-$5mill. I think due to his excellent coaching and finding a way to get this team through the #1 seed in the Western Conference, he deserves a salary raise. Not only does he coach well, but hes very involved in the front office. I dont think the Mark Cuban court ordeal is the reason of this, Nellie simply just wants some more money for his dedication to the Warriors. He is 67, he found a way to get Ellis and Biedrins to play well despite their young ages and he found a system and helped pulled off a trade this fits this team perfectly. If a player plays well, he gets paid more come resigning...so why cant Nellie get more money? He deserves it...

+2 for BluffCity

Bump. Come on guys, this is a good topic.

I think we need to stop doing rumour topics. It doesn't bring out basketball knowledge at all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 10 2007, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think we need to stop doing rumour topics. It doesn't bring out basketball knowledge at all.</div>not much controversy going on in the NBA so this is the best we can do for now. What topics did you have in mind?

It doesn't have to be current issues in the NBA. It could just be talking about players or something. You're doing a great job man. I'm not trying to discredit you. But I just think rumour topics don't have much room for debate or overall basketball knowledge?You know what I'm saying?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 10 2007, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It doesn't have to be current issues in the NBA. It could just be talking about players or something. You're doing a great job man. I'm not trying to discredit you. But I just think rumour topics don't have much room for debate or overall basketball knowledge?You know what I'm saying?</div>I know that, but I feel this is the time where we should discuss off-season moves and rumors. I guess we could start doing Summer League topics, but I mean come on, there isn't much going on there and USA basketball is about a month and a half away. I'm starting to think we should cover more sports than just basketball, although this is a bball board and some don't know too much about MLB and NFL. :no1:

That's what I'm saying. We can talk about the NBA last year. We don't have to talk about current stuff, because right now the NBA is dead....and debating about signings isn't really my thing.

If this is supposed to be PTI we should discuss all sports. if people didnt expect it to be that, they shouldnt have signed up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jul 10 2007, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If this is supposed to be PTI we should discuss all sports. if people didnt expect it to be that, they shouldnt have signed up.</div>I had to make it all b-ball, but it would be much more active if it were all sports. In fact, I think we should change it to all sports seeing is how there won't be much basketball news for a while. What do you guys think?

I'll close today's topic and I'll have to figure something out.TotalsBluffCityBlue- 5RaptorFan#1- 5CB4AllStar- 3PrimeTime- 2

Hey, what? We didnt even make our responses.

Just make a new topic for today hornetsfan, ill live with giving bluffcity 2 more

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jul 11 2007, 04:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hey, what? We didnt even make our responses.</div>You had all day to do that... Im making a new one and your all pretty close to eachother so try and score some points today.

Okay, today we're making our first cut so get some points and try to stay in the game...Topic #3- Buy Or SellRon Artest told the media on Tuesday that he'd like to retire a Sacramento King. Although he has had a decent start there thus far, clearly you cannot believe one word this man says. This is sort of a two part Buy or Sell.... Do you B/S Artest finishing his career with the Kings? If not, do you B/S Artest playing beyond next season with the Kings knowing he's a very unpredictable man?

I sell Artest finishing his career with the Kings. I sell him finishing next season with Artest.The only players who stick around a team until the end of their career are the faces of the franchise, or sometimes players other teams dont want. Artest is neither, I do think Artest will be dealt eventually cause the Kings will eventually get tired of his off-court business. The Artest type of players get moved around alot. Eventually, in the near future(especially if Hawes turns out to be a stud) we're going to see a Kings team being rebuily around the young talent they have in Martin and Hawes. This means Artest and Bibby will probably be dealt.Its hard to say if Artest is going to be dealt this season. Artest is a very loyal player, before he went to the Kings, he said he wanted to be a Pacer until the end of his career....that didnt stop the Pacers management. Theres not doubt in my mind Artest is actually a very good person who wants so bad to be that top class guy who when we look at his career, we think of what he did for a specific team(like the Pacers or Kings) rather than the off-the-court issues. Im selling him being dealt this season simply for the fact theres already rumors about it and theres probably a better chance of him being dealt than not.

+2 for BluffCity, you now take the leadFor the other guys, I'd like to make the cut by at least this evening so don't just browse at the topic and wait to make your post, do it ASAP. Thanks.

I'm definitely going to sell Artest staying with the Kings for his entire career. This guy is a nut case. Every year we all see it happen. Something goes wrong with him. He gets into feuds with his coaches, says dumb stuff to the media, he got into the infamous brawl, and he seems to be more interested in his lousy rap career than playing basketball. This guy is a nutcase, and something will happen that will warrant him being traded.The Kings are likely going to have another tough non-playoff season next year, so the tension will probably rise to a point where they might even consider trading him next season. And I also guarentee that he gets into some scandal, whatever it may be. It is impossible for him to be with one team for his entire career because he always, always, always gets into trouble with his team or the League. The organization would grow sick of him pretty quickly, and there's no way that the Kings will keep this guy until he retires. He seemed to want out last season, and now he wants to stay a King for his entire career. Like you said, this guy's opinion always seems to change, and you can never count on anything he says. By next season I see him complaining to the media, and I have no doubt he'll request a trade in the next year or two.But I am going to buy him staying beyond a year in Sacramento. That means that he could still be traded in the midseason of the year afrer next, right? I see him staying a King next year because of his court skills. His plays some of the best perimiter D in the League, he can shoot (although some of his shots are questionable), he's as strong as a bull and great at driving...So on the court, he's the ultimate 2nd option. I don't see anything serious enough happening for him to be traded next season. That sort of seems a bit abrupt to me. Over time, they will get rid of him, but probably not next season. Remember that the Kings probably won't even get any good offers for him because he is such a nut case and every team knows that he will never pan out.... for any team. So the Kings will deal with him next season just because his trade value is pretty dang low because he is such a risk. They will just settle with what he can do on the court and hope to god that he doesn't make a complete ass of himself, and their own organization in the process.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (808Hornetsfan @ Jul 11 2007, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You had all day to do that... Im making a new one and your all pretty close to eachother so try and score some points today.</div>I don't think it's that fair, really...if it was only me that didnt reply to it than I'd be fine with that decision...but everyone but 1 didn't reply to that topic. I think you should've gave us another day or created a new topic altogether. It gives him a pretty good advantage now.