Tha Cavs have been one of the worst teams in the league the past 8 years. If Camby was playing in Z's place I'm pretty sure they would be just about the same. Camby Might not be as Z offensively but Z is'nt as good as Camby on defense. I would have drafted Camby of Z any day, Even sunday. Peja isnt all that good either. He is a good scorer but i wouldnt call him one of the best in the league. Maybe one of the best shooters. He's not that good at creating his own shots and as everyone knows he chokes in the playoffs. I would take Camby over him too.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">A good player who has to be mindful of his body in every single game the man plays, as he gets older and his body becomes more and more vulnerable and more difficult to tend to? You've been a little harsh on Stoudamire, Trip.</div> I'll admit it, I've been stretching the limit on Stoudamire's game. I always had respect for him and he is one of the players I pay attention to, but I'll never view him as the 20/9 star that he once was, but rather as a 13/5 veteran role player. After all, I'm saying all this crap about him because I was trying to give proof that he wasn't a good choice at the 7th spot. Maybe my point about Stoudamire has been all wrong, but I still don't think that Isiah is the drafting genius you make him out to be.
Ok, are you (mrj18) telling me that if Isiah right now goes out and trades Marbury for Camby, you'd be happy and brag about it??!
Trip, you act as if Stoudamire would've been a 13 point, 6 assist guy had he not been injured. That's the only thing that I'm concerned with. I mean, the guy was incredible in Toronto, you make it as if he just lost all he had because it was his choice. And that he wasn't worthy ofthe 7th pick, but how would anyone know that? If he didn't get injured, chances are you wouldn't be making this argument, that's all.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Trip, you act as if Stoudamire would've been a 13 point, 6 assist guy had he not been injured. That's the only thing that I'm concerned with. I mean, the guy was incredible in Toronto, you make it as if he just lost all he had because it was his choice. And that he wasn't worthy ofthe 7th pick, but how would anyone know that? If he didn't get injured, chances are you wouldn't be making this argument, that's all.</div> From his player profile on NBA.com, Stoudamire averaged 12.4ppg in his first 22 games with the team. That sure aren't on par with the 20 he had in Toronto, so what I'm saying is that his numbers stayed the same before and after his injury, so I doubt it affected him as much as you say it did.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Trip, you act as if Stoudamire would've been a 13 point, 6 assist guy had he not been injured. That's the only thing that I'm concerned with. I mean, the guy was incredible in Toronto, you make it as if he just lost all he had because it was his choice. And that he wasn't worthy ofthe 7th pick, but how would anyone know that? If he didn't get injured, chances are you wouldn't be making this argument, that's all.</div> Actually when Stoudamire went to Portland his role changed, it wasn't much due to his injuries. He had Wallace, Sabonis and other players like Jim Jackson, Steve Smith, Pippen and others who can score, so he wasn't the primary option anymore. If he was a primary option, the franchise wouldn't be sucessful like it was, because he's a play maker more than a scorer. He can score when he wants, but he'll get burned on the defensive end because his height, strength and his quickness on D. He also did something called pot and marijuana which might of had a big impact on his game...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Trip, you act as if Stoudamire would've been a 13 point, 6 assist guy had he not been injured. That's the only thing that I'm concerned with. I mean, the guy was incredible in Toronto, you make it as if he just lost all he had because it was his choice. And that he wasn't worthy ofthe 7th pick, but how would anyone know that? If he didn't get injured, chances are you wouldn't be making this argument, that's all.</div>I don't want to turn this into the Damon Stoudemire thread but I do agree with Trip to a point that Damon is a career 13 and 6 player. The only reason he was averaging 20 and 9 in Toronto was because he was their MAIN scoring option each and every time on the floor. Once he got dealt to a contending team that had scorers of their own his stats took a major dip. Injured or not, Damon was the main man in Toronto. That was the only reason why he averaged such numbers and that is the only time he averaged such numbers in his career. I do think he was worthy of the 7th pick but don't let the stats fool you. He was the Raptors 1st, 2nd and 3rd option on offense. Put him in a situation where he has talent around him and his stats drop significantly. Oh and btw he is also a career .400 shooter from the field.
I question this deal for the Knicks, but I can also see it working out for them. Basically I'm still undecided, because there has to be another deal in the works. Pros The Knicks get more draft picks The Knicks get rid of the Vin Baker experiment Cons The Knicks lose their starting Center The Knicks have a logjam at short PFs (Thomas, Taylor, Rose, Sweetney) The Knicks added two large contracts again ($32M more in salaries...ouch) If the Knicks are truely rebuilding, I would think Sweetney would be a major piece for them to build with. Adding Taylor and Rose to the PF mix, will hinder Sweetney's growth. The Knicks also have no center now, except Sundov, and playing without a true center always makes a PFs job harder. This trade has to signify the end of Kurt Thomas in a Knicks uniform after this season. Right now the Knicks are in worse shape than they were before these two trades went down. The only way Isiah can come out a winner is by having a great draft this year (which will be hard to do because there is no clear cut #1 or #2 pick) or pull off a trade to land him an impact player. The Knicks have no chance of signing any free agents because they are well over the cap. I'll have to see what Isiah plans to do in the summer before I can fairly assess the deal. But for the short future, this is a bad trade for the Knicks. But since they didn't have much of a future this season to begin with, they aren't really losing much.
Trip he was traded in the middle of the season and he played 5 less minutes per game with Portland. How in the world is he supposed to gel with a new team in the middle of the year for 20-some odd games? He still did manage to average 8 assists. Also, you act as if he should suddenly become a bum? That's doesn't happen. Players need time to adapt to systems and new teams. You're being unreasonable if you expected the same scoring out of him. Hell, Marbury barely took any shots in his early games in New York, I'd say his first 10 or 12 games he held back his shooting to get a feel for his teammates. So it should come as no surprise that the same would occur with Stoudamire. Stoudamire had it even tougher, coming off a team where he was a big time guy, you could say he was some kind of a 'fan favorite' - traded in the middle of the year - no longer the big guy, he has to adapt. He did fine in his first 20 games. Why would he want to take so many shots in his first games with a team, wouldn't that give a bad impression to his teammates? Yes! Look at what's happening between Carter and Kidd now. Kidd is already complaining about Carter's shooting. Stoudamire was smart enough to keep himself from getting into one of those situations, if anything you should be applauding the man. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually when Stoudamire went to Portland his role changed, it wasn't much due to his injuries. He had Wallace, Sabonis and other players like Jim Jackson, Steve Smith, Pippen and others who can score, so he wasn't the primary option anymore. If he was a primary option, the franchise wouldn't be sucessful like it was, because he's a play maker more than a scorer. He can score when he wants, but he'll get burned on the defensive end because his height, strength and his quickness on D. He also did something called pot and marijuana which might of had a big impact on his game...</div> Yeah, I know that too. But is Isiah at fault for that? The answer is no. The whole discussion going on here is about Isiah's drafting. Isiah drafted for Toronto, not Portland. Stoudamire was worthy of the 7th pick when he was in Toronto, do you agree? BTW- I realize Stoudamire isn't a great player, I'm saying we don't know. And I'm saying that the man deserves at least a shred of credit. Good point about his shooting percentage, C.V. Very good call. But still, who are we to say it'd be any different had he stayed in Toronto, where he was drafted (By Isiah).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually when Stoudamire went to Portland his role changed, it wasn't much due to his injuries. He had Wallace, Sabonis and other players like Jim Jackson, Steve Smith, Pippen and others who can score, so he wasn't the primary option anymore. If he was a primary option, the franchise wouldn't be sucessful like it was, because he's a play maker more than a scorer. He can score when he wants, but he'll get burned on the defensive end because his height, strength and his quickness on D. He also did something called pot and marijuana which might of had a big impact on his game...</div> Yeah, I know that too. But is Isiah at fault for that? The answer is no. The whole discussion going on here is about Isiah's drafting. Isiah drafted for Toronto, not Portland. Stoudamire was worthy of the 7th pick when he was in Toronto, do you agree? BTW- I realize Stoudamire isn't a great player, I'm saying we don't know. And I'm saying that the man deserves at least a shred of credit. Good point about his shooting percentage, C.V. Very good call. But still, who are we to say it'd be any different had he stayed in Toronto, where he was drafted (By Isiah).
Yeah, and Damon also took 6 shots less with Portland per game. Still, the reason I think he didn't do as good as he did in Toronto in Portland is because of the fact that he wasn't the best player on the team anymore. He was used to taking the scoring load in Toronto, but he found out with the Blazers that there were players who could play better than him, and he somewhat backed off of the ball on offense in Portland. And how the hell could an injury affect your passing? His assists dropped by 2 in his second season in Portland. It's unfair to label him as a 20ppg guy when it is clear he was able to get it only because someone on a losing team had to.
Trip, what are you talking about? I never labeled him as a 20ppg guy. I just think you're being unreasonable that's all. Admit this, for the time Stoudamire played in Toronto (Where he was drafted by Isiah). Was he worthy of the 7th pick? And don't give me the team's record, they were an expansion team. <u>Was Stoudamire worthy of the 7th pick in Toronto?</u>
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Was Stoudamire worthy of the 7th pick in Toronto</div> He was...It's not like Isiah is some mastermind though. Damon was already a high projected pick though so it's not like Isiah did some rocket science **** to pick him. Tracy Mcgrady > Excellent Choice, Damon Stoudamire > Good selection, Marcus Camby > Horrible selection, Trevor Ariza > Good Selection as of now. For Camby, he wasn't a great player at UMass. He was selected because he broke out in his last season there, however, most of that was due to the fact that the team did not have any great scoring options, and Camby was better at the PF/C posistion than most college players. His improvement came with playing time, but most of the players he played against were stiffs, so that's a big reason for his acceleration. Many knew he wouldn't be that good in the NBA, as is the case now. Isiah just got caught up in the hype of how good Camby did at the time. If you ask many older Raptor fans, they'll tell you their thoughts on the bad selection of Camby, from that specific time. <font color="Red">No cursing. Thanks. - Knicks Analyst</font>
I agree with you about Camby, Banks. 100% correct IMO. I understand Isiah wasn't a mastermind with the pick of Stoudamire, but it still was a superb pick nonetheless. You said yourself he's made some fine picks. I'm not defending Isiah as a GM, just as a drafter. Trust me, I think Isiah is the worst GM (He's actually Pres. of Basketball operations, but still) in the entire league. But he still does have an eye for talent. He is a good drafter, nothing more.
In hindsight it's easy to look back on a draft and rip GMs for passing up on this or that player. Looking back on those drafts, sure, Isiah passed over a lot of talent, but you cannot put the sole blame on him. You have to also blame the team scouts at the time. Most GM's only actually watch a few players, based on the recommendations of their scouting team. If the scouts give them bad reports, then of course the GM is going to make a bad decision. Wow I just defended Isiah. You can't criticize Isiah drafting Damon Stoudamire. The Raptors needed a PG for the team, and Damon was the best available coming into the draft. The Raptors had Doug Christie as their future SG, and they had plenty of forwards already on the team. So it didn't make sense for them to draft a big, Damon made the most sense, and he went on to win ROY. What happened after that, you can't blame Isiah because he had nothing to do with it. In the 1996 draft the Raptors took Camby as another piece to build around Damon. They unloaded a lot of their veterans from the previous year, and went after a shotblocker. At the time the Raptors had Damon-Christie-Walt Williams-Rozier-Sharone Wright. The obvious weak spot was at PF, so Camby made the most sense. Sure he passed up on Reef (SF), Marbury (PG), Allen (SG), Walker (SF), Kobe (SG), Peja (SG), JO (PF), Ilgauskas ©, but at the time none of those players made sense to take. The Raptors were set in the backcourt, and Jermaine O'neal and Ilgauskas were two unknowns at the time.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Trip, what are you talking about? I never labeled him as a 20ppg guy. I just think you're being unreasonable that's all. Admit this, for the time Stoudamire played in Toronto (Where he was drafted by Isiah). Was he worthy of the 7th pick? And don't give me the team's record, they were an expansion team. <u>Was Stoudamire worthy of the 7th pick in Toronto?</u></div> When did I ever say he wasn't worthy of that pick? Now that doesn't mean he was a great choice by Thomas. Looking at the rest of his class, it was basically a no-brainer to pick Damon, and Isiah did just that. I wouldn't say that he was a genius for picking Stoudamire, because of what he's turned out to be now. Now, Marcus Camby was not a good pick at all by Isiah, so I don't get why mrj18 is actually applauding Isiah for the move.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting shapecity:</div><div class="quote_post"> In the 1996 draft the Raptors took Camby as another piece to build around Damon. They unloaded a lot of their veterans from the previous year, and went after a shotblocker. At the time the Raptors had Damon-Christie-Walt Williams-Rozier-Sharone Wright. The obvious weak spot was at PF, so Camby made the most sense. Sure he passed up on Reef (SF), Marbury (PG), Allen (SG), Walker (SF), Kobe (SG), Peja (SG), JO (PF), Ilgauskas ©, but at the time none of those players made sense to take. The Raptors were set in the backcourt, and Jermaine O'neal and Ilgauskas were two unknowns at the time.</div> When you're an expansion team, you don't pick for position, you select the best player and the best talent and you build around it. Starting swingmen of Christie and Walt in nowhere near set! Passing on talents like Kobe and Allen who who had a tremendous year at UConn are just plain stupid! It ain't my problem that you New York cats are so blinded by anything Knick related that you make stupid comments like that. A team that is in their second year in the league shouldn't pass on talent that has great potential for a need.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Purple Fever:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, it was the 1997 draft.</div> This is the only part of your post I read. You want to come into the Knicks forum and talk smack, go for it. You'll get shut down no matter what. Know your facts though, homeboy. Marcus Camby was drafted in 1996, not 1997. So yeah, think and do some research before you call us blinded.
OMG, I got confused between the year McGrady was drafted and Camby was drafted, OMG, you beat me, OMG Knick fans know everything I didn't talk smack at all, I just have a point and I'm stuck by it.
