Low point in Blazer history

[Phatguysrule]

If we could have offered better than James Harden to the Sixers, they would have sent Simmons to us. I guess a small advantage is when trading for a star towards the end of a contract, the more desirable markets would have a better chance of retaining a player that they trade for. Teams will cave on trade demands if a player is willing to play like shit or sit but those players have not historically had much say in where they are going. AD seems to have gone where he wanted to but I don't remember him demanding a trade there. LeBron demanded that the Lakers got AD for him and the Lakers paid big time for that trade. They in no way got a discount because they play in LA. Ball, Ingram, Hart and all of those picks... one of which was the number 4 pick in that draft. That's a fucking haul for a superstar.

I would seriously need one example besides that bullshit that Jerry West pulled in Pau trade, where a big market team got a discount on a trade that landed them a difference maker. I don't think you're going to find one.

We couldn't offer better than Harden without including Dame.

All Stars find their way to large markets. That's just the way it works. It's not that major markets get a discount, rather that mid markets don't typically get a sniff. Because teams keep their All Stars until the All Star wants to move on.

We can theoretically trade for an All Star, but we weren't going to get one in return for CJ, RoCo and Norm with those contracts.

When the opportunity arises we need to have hands down the best offer on the table, or be close enough that the player picks us over others. And that wasn't going to happen with those 3. Probably still won't happen. But we're moving in that direction...

 

[STOMP]

Because all stars and their agents typically want to go to large markets, and they express that desire when they are being shopped.

From my understanding, shoe contracts (& such) automatically go up exponentially for players who move to the biggest markets. All the side deals pitching for the local companies are worth much more too. Who likes to make more money?[/rhetorical]

STOMP

 

[blazerkor]

From my understanding, shoe contracts (& such) automatically go up exponentially for players who move to the biggest markets. All the side deals pitching for the local companies are worth much more too. Who likes to make more money?[/rhetorical]

STOMP

The national endorsement deals going up is not a real thing but there are definitely a ton of local endorsements in big markets for decent money that aren't available in smaller markets but it's chump change when you're someone on even Dame's level, let alone a bigger superstar. So I guess for a B or C list all star a big media market can make a difference but again that would be why the big markets have an advantage in free agency. No one gives a shit if a small time all star demands a trade and a specific destination or even to a large market. You have to have some superstar level sway not to get laughed out of your GMs office with a demand like that. In this day and age superstars can make as much in Cleveland as they can in New York... they might go to New York or LA like LeBron did so he's closer to business opportunities he's pursuing as a mogul but again, I just don't see how that makes the trade market in the NBA uneven. Free agency is bullshit... I honestly think that small market teams should get higher odds in the draft lottery because of how badly they get fucked by free agency but trades are almost as equitable as the draft.

 

[THE HCP]

Exactly. You “quit” when the game is so far out of reach not even a miracle will help. This is why you always want to put the most competitive team possible on the floor. Losing like this not only demoralizes players, it fosters bad habits.

But all but 3 or so these players that are being demoralized are even going to be in the NBA next season let alone on the Blazers.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

I actually agree with you there. I just don't see it in this draft and the players they got are too far away from becoming serious contenders from what i see.
The Blazers need solid picks for a few years.
Unfortunately they just don't have that kind of time. 2-3 years max more with Lillard. What's worse is he is really really expensive.

2-3 max?? Try 2-3 at least. In fact, we have at least 5 more good years with Dame if we want him. This was only his 10th season. Yes, he was 22 his rookie year but Chris Paul took the Suns to the Finals when he was 37, I think.

The only place Kawhi was ever traded as far as I know was Toronto, which I don't consider to be a market that has an advantage over us. AD is a good example but besides sign and trades which I consider a different market than just trades, it just doesn't happen often that any team has an inherent advantage when it comes to the trade market. Weird things happen like Jerry West leaving the Lakers to run the Grizzlies and then giving the Lakers a very favorable deal soon after. So there are situational advantages teams can have but I just don't see media market size being an advantage/disadvantage in the NBA trade market. Free agency for sure and that's a big deal, a huge disadvantage but small market teams like ourselves build championships through the draft and trades because those are the areas of acquisition that are an even playing field.

Toronto has a major advantage over us. The Raptors have a whole country backing them. And Toronto's population is about 4 times that of Portland.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Try 2-3 at least. In fact, we have at least 5 more good years with Dame if we want him.

I simply think that is wishful thinking. I believe if this team isn't back to playoff form next year he will be gone. In my opinion that is a very real possibility. New Coach, Center with a terrible attitude and who won't be playing for a contract, untested team with a bunch of role players, Same duplicity of smallish guards, No true Power Forward, The team is still reliant on Dame to save the day. Those are just the issues we can see. Now throw in the basic possible injuries as obviously we have never seen Nurkic actually play a season and Little can't seem to make it a full month. What are they going to rely on to get past the next season ending foot, leg, wrist, injury that Nurkic sustains? What happens when Dame goes down for a month?
This team will have a rookie coach because you can't say he is coaching now and he simply has not shown he can make even the most simple adjustments in a real game. Seriously to this point Cheeks had shown more than Billups. Not impressed with Chauncey at all.

Sorry but this is essentially a total rebuild with the softest center in the NBA around a 6'-2" guard. Blazers will be lucky to get .500 ball next year. I'll call it now 41-41 with a first round out if they make it through the play in.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

But all but 3 or so these players that are being demoralized are even going to be in the NBA next season let alone on the Blazers.

This is my point here.
How can we act like the Blazers are not in total rebuild other than Lillard and Nurk at this point?
How can we say Billups is getting any real experience at coaching when he's just going through the motions.
How can we feel confident this rebuild won't take 2-3 years like most rebuilds do?

We can't. Some of these guys better get ready for a bumpy ride and hope all the pieces fall into place because if the Blazers don't get a top three pick this could last for a number of years. You cannot expect a game changer at #8-10 pick.

 

[TBpup]

I simply think that is wishful thinking. I believe if this team isn't back to playoff form next year he will be gone. In my opinion that is a very real possibility. New Coach, Center with a terrible attitude and who won't be playing for a contract, untested team with a bunch of role players, Same duplicity of smallish guards, No true Power Forward, The team is still reliant on Dame to save the day. Those are just the issues we can see. Now throw in the basic possible injuries as obviously we have never seen Nurkic actually play a season and Little can't seem to make it a full month. What are they going to rely on to get past the next season ending foot, leg, wrist, injury that Nurkic sustains? What happens when Dame goes down for a month?
This team will have a rookie coach because you can't say he is coaching now and he simply has not shown he can make even the most simple adjustments in a real game. Seriously to this point Cheeks had shown more than Billups. Not impressed with Chauncey at all.

Sorry but this is essentially a total rebuild with the softest center in the NBA around a 6'-2" guard. Blazers will be lucky to get .500 ball next year. I'll call it now 41-41 with a first round out if they make it through the play in.

First round out? So basically, the majority of years recently except with younger talent and a better cap situation and either an upgrade in talent from a trade of a Lottery pick, or potentially 2 young studs to grow with Ant/Nas.

To be honest, that sounds better than in previous seasons.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

First round out? So basically, the majority of years recently except with younger talent and a better cap situation and either an upgrade in talent from a trade of a Lottery pick, or potentially 2 young studs to grow with Ant/Nas.

To be honest, that sounds better than in previous seasons.

Selective interpretation is a funny thing.

Sorry but this is essentially a total rebuild with the softest center in the NBA around a 6'-2" guard. Blazers will be lucky to get .500 ball next year. I'll call it now 41-41 with a first round out if they make it through the play in.

That is not "The Majority of years recently" sorry.
Your dependence on the "Lottery Pick" being a game changer is highly suspect.

One of your "Two young Studs" can't stay on the court due to injury. The other one of your "Two Young Studs" is a small guard that duplicates what CJ brought.
Not sure how you don't see that but I'm good with your positivity.

Not sure how that sounds better than .592 winning % over the last 7 of 8 years not including the covid season for obvious reasons. I also dropped the first season after McMillan for obvious reasons as well. That produced playoffs every year with two conference semis and one conference finals appearance.

Like i said your faith in a late Lottery pick being a transformational player is suspect but i do find it intriguing.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

But all but 3 or so these players that are being demoralized are even going to be in the NBA next season let alone on the Blazers.

I don't think this sentence says what you mean (I think there's a "not" missing) but why don't you list the players YOU think are going to be out of the NBA next season.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I simply think that is wishful thinking. I believe if this team isn't back to playoff form next year he will be gone. In my opinion that is a very real possibility. New Coach, Center with a terrible attitude and who won't be playing for a contract, untested team with a bunch of role players, Same duplicity of smallish guards, No true Power Forward, The team is still reliant on Dame to save the day. Those are just the issues we can see. Now throw in the basic possible injuries as obviously we have never seen Nurkic actually play a season and Little can't seem to make it a full month. What are they going to rely on to get past the next season ending foot, leg, wrist, injury that Nurkic sustains? What happens when Dame goes down for a month?
This team will have a rookie coach because you can't say he is coaching now and he simply has not shown he can make even the most simple adjustments in a real game. Seriously to this point Cheeks had shown more than Billups. Not impressed with Chauncey at all.

Sorry but this is essentially a total rebuild with the softest center in the NBA around a 6'-2" guard. Blazers will be lucky to get .500 ball next year. I'll call it now 41-41 with a first round out if they make it through the play in.

I think the Blazers will win at least 48 games next season unless they have injury problems.

Dame, Ant, Nurk, Hart, Little is 48 wins no matter who you're bringing off the bench, IMO.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I think the Blazers will win at least 48 games next season unless they have injury problems.

Dame, Ant, Nurk, Hart, Little is 48 wins no matter who you're bringing off the bench, IMO.

That is a pretty optimistic prediction at this point without even knowing the pick/picks.
Even more so if you are looking past injuries. Nurk is a walking injury. Little hasn't played a full month without injury yet? Hart can't shoot to save his life. What is the difference between Dame/CJ and Dame/Ant really?
It has been proven time and time again you need depth to win in the NBA. 6th, 7th and 8th man are very important. A team that tries to make it on a 8 man rotation is toast. You need at least 4 serviceable players off the bench. CJ Elleby ain't gonna cut it.

 

[stampedehero]

I’ve been watching Blazer basketball longer than some of you have been alive, and this is the lowest point of all, as far as I’m concerned. We’re conceding the last twenty games of the season in hopes of getting a slightly better draft pick, which is sickening. Young guys like Watford and Williams and Simons are playing their butts off, and Billups is doing the best coaching he can, but the front office is doing everything they can to make sure the team loses. They’ve already removed a healthy Nurkic, and they’ll invent a reason to take another player out of the lineup if they have to. It’s embarrassing and dispiriting for our young guys, and it’s extremely bad karma. I don’t even want to watch this anymore.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

View attachment 46023

Rick Adleman actually playing for the Blazers.

 

[blazerkor]

This is my point here.
How can we act like the Blazers are not in total rebuild other than Lillard and Nurk at this point?
How can we say Billups is getting any real experience at coaching when he's just going through the motions.
How can we feel confident this rebuild won't take 2-3 years like most rebuilds do?

We can't. Some of these guys better get ready for a bumpy ride and hope all the pieces fall into place because if the Blazers don't get a top three pick this could last for a number of years. You cannot expect a game changer at #8-10 pick.

This ignores everything we've all seen going on. We are in the midst of a shameless tank and our pick will end up higher than 8th. We'll also very likely have a a pick in the late lotto to go with a top 6 pick. Of our pick doesn't land in the top 2 or 3 then I would expect a trade for an established PF. So we'll go into the season upgraded at the position you identified as our biggest weakness.

I also share in your concerns that Dame/Ant will have similar issues that have plagued us for 6 seasons of Dame/CJ but Ant isn't a duplicate. He'll be able to cut off of the ball better than CJ to get open jumpers or high percentage looks going to the hole. So there is a better chance for more assisted points by Ant from Dame. I also don't think that Ant and Dame have the same relationship as Dame and CJ. So I don't expect Dame or Chauncey to be cool with all of the time wasting MeJ is shit coming from Ant and don't even think Ant wants to do that. Also, Ant is young so he's malleable. So with a defensive minded coach and athletic gifts that CJ never had there is a reasonable expectation that he will rapidly become a lot better than CJ on the defensive end.

We'll also likely have both Nas and Hart so better depth at the 2/3 spot than before. In general your prediction that we'll have a repeat of what we saw most of the last 6 seasons doesn't have a lot of basis in our current reality but it is understandable given the rut we have been in for so long.

 

[HailBlazers]

Awkward point in Blazer history to be sure. But Chauncey has showed me enough with his style of play that with a finally healthy Dame and a crew of unselfish hard playing teammates I'm high on our outlook moreso than anytime in the recent era.

 

[wizenheimer]

Not sure how that sounds better than .592 winning % over the last 7 of 8 years not including the covid season for obvious reasons. I also dropped the first season after McMillan for obvious reasons as well. That produced playoffs every year with two conference semis and one conference finals appearance.

Like i said your faith in a late Lottery pick being a transformational player is suspect but i do find it intriguing.

that's definitely looks like cherry picking the gauges

What Portland had for almost 7 seasons was a Dame/CJ team. Olshey gleefully committed to that team in the summer of 2015. He kept doubling down on that team every year, refusing to consider that his vision was clouded by ego-driven cataracts.

In the 6.6 years of the Dame/CJ team, Portland had a .541 winning percentage. Normalizing the seasons to an 82 game schedule, Portland averaged 44 wins and a 6th seed. That is purgatory in a nutshell. Chugging some Red Bull while trudging on a treadmill

Blazers were going to the same fucking nowhere this season that they had gone for the previous 6 seasons. Portland lost nothing of significance at the trade deadline. Maybe they should have received a better return for the players they gave up, but those players were making 70M and generating no upside...at all

at least right now, the Blazers have an opportunity to not simply reboot the same core and hope for a different outcome. Saying there are no guarantees in the draft seems pointless to me because nobody has ever said there were. But the top-10 all time leading scorers in Blazer history were all added with draft picks. CJ-Powell-RoCo-Nance were not altering Portland's trajectory. A rebuild starting with a pair of lottery picks might

 

[Fairly-Hard]

that's definitely looks like cherry picking the gauges

What Portland had for almost 7 seasons was a Dame/CJ team. Olshey gleefully committed to that team in the summer of 2015. He kept doubling down on that team every year, refusing to consider that his vision was clouded by ego-driven cataracts.

In the 6.6 years of the Dame/CJ team, Portland had a .541 winning percentage. Normalizing the seasons to an 82 game schedule, Portland averaged 44 wins and a 6th seed. That is purgatory in a nutshell. Chugging some Red Bull while trudging on a treadmill

Blazers were going to the same fucking nowhere this season that they had gone for the previous 6 seasons. Portland lost nothing of significance at the trade deadline. Maybe they should have received a better return for the players they gave up, but those players were making 70M and generating no upside...at all

at least right now, the Blazers have an opportunity to not simply reboot the same core and hope for a different outcome. Saying there are no guarantees in the draft seems pointless to me because nobody has ever said there were. But the top-10 all time leading scorers in Blazer history were all added with draft picks. CJ-Powell-RoCo-Nance were not altering Portland's trajectory. A rebuild starting with a pair of lottery picks might

It was definitely cherry picking. To make a point about cherry picking the other way.
Exactly.

 

[STOMP]

The national endorsement deals going up is not a real thing...

Do you have any evidence of this or am I supposed to take your word over multiple interviews with athletes & agents saying otherwise?

Money is a powerful motivational factor for most people. Setting aside sordid stuff like the league may favor big markets with their officiating (which they've kept in-house even following the Donaghy scandal where they promised they'd finally change this dynamic which isn't found in any other sport), why do you think there is such an obvious pull towards the bigger markets as the small market NBA superstar moves along in their career? Why doesn't it work the other way when a smaller market team has the cap room, cash and obvious interest?

STOMP

 

[Bingo Bango]

View attachment 46023

I was at the game in 1970 when that poster was handed out! I have my own copy. A classic.

 

[Bingo Bango]

This Draft outside of the first 3 picks has run of the mill talent IMHO and very little in what the Blazers need. That is why i don't see tanking to get not much at all.

Exactly. Tanking is a bad move anyway, but tanking for this year’s draft is just stupid. The whole thing smells of desperation.

 

[blazerkor]

Do you have any evidence of this or am I supposed to take your word over multiple interviews with athletes & agents saying otherwise?

Money is a powerful motivational factor for most people. Setting aside sordid stuff like the league may favor big markets with their officiating (which they've kept in-house even following the Donaghy scandal where they promised they'd finally change this dynamic which isn't found in any other sport), why do you think there is such an obvious pull towards the bigger markets as the small market NBA superstar moves along in their career? Why doesn't it work the other way when a smaller market team has the cap room, cash and obvious interest?

STOMP

I'm not going to do the leg work for you but LeBron was by far the player with the most money coming from endorsements during his first stint with the Cavs and Kobe was still in the league with the Lakers. Giannis is fourth in the league right now in endorsement money and he's with the Bucks. I could give you more names but at a superstar level the national money is not related to the market size and it hasn't been. At one point Charles Barkley was the second highest earner in endorsements to MJ and was playing in Phoenix.

 

[blazerkor]

Exactly. Tanking is a bad move anyway, but tanking for this year’s draft is just stupid. The whole thing smells of desperation.

What if they're tanking to get the best asset possible because they are sure they are going to trade it? Regardless of what you think of this draft class and you seem to be at odds with the national pundits that say it's pretty strong, the higher our pick is the more value it has in a trade and the more options we have if we use it to draft someone. Therefore if we're not making the playoffs, not tanking is the only thing that can be stupid. This bullshit moral code that you seem to think exists is a figment of your imagination. I would consider Pop to be about as competitive and ethically driven as any executive in this sport and he did almost exactly what we are doing now, the year they got Duncan with very little hope that he was actually going to get Duncan. Pop just understood that he needed to attain the highest value asset he could if his playoff team was missing the playoffs that year, so they could be better going forward.

 

[Bingo Bango]

I would consider Pop to be about as competitive and ethically driven as any executive in this sport and he did almost exactly what we are doing now, the year they got Duncan.

Popovich is an idiot, and I don’t care what he does. I remember many years ago reading about a guy from Eastern Oregon who drove three hours to a late-season Blazer game so his kid could see Magic Johnson play in person, only to realize when he got there that the Lakers were giving Magic the night off because they already had a playoff position locked up. I’ve never forgotten that. I believe NBA teams should put their best possible team on the floor every night because they owe it to their fans who buy the tickets and make the NBA a successful business. No Blazer fan should be expected to pay $50 for a seat and then watch the team get blown out by 40 because the organization is trying to lose.

 

[Phatguysrule]

That is a pretty optimistic prediction at this point without even knowing the pick/picks.
Even more so if you are looking past injuries. Nurk is a walking injury. Little hasn't played a full month without injury yet? Hart can't shoot to save his life. What is the difference between Dame/CJ and Dame/Ant really?
It has been proven time and time again you need depth to win in the NBA. 6th, 7th and 8th man are very important. A team that tries to make it on a 8 man rotation is toast. You need at least 4 serviceable players off the bench. CJ Elleby ain't gonna cut it.

I said without injury problems. And I think Ant is a better defender than CJ, as well as a more efficient scorer. I think Hart is also a better fit for Billups system than Norm. I think think we're almost certainly going to get at least one near starter level player out of our draft picks.

Dame and CJ never really had trouble winning 48 games, and barring injury I don't that that'll be a problem for Dame and Ant either. It might even be easier with better defense...

 

[Phatguysrule]

Popovich is an idiot, and I don’t care what he does. I remember many years ago reading about a guy from Eastern Oregon who drove three hours to a late-season Blazer game so his kid could see Magic Johnson play in person, only to realize when he got there that the Lakers were giving Magic the night off because they already had a playoff position locked up. I’ve never forgotten that. I believe NBA teams should put their best possible team on the floor every night because they owe it to their fans who buy the tickets and make the NBA a successful business. No Blazer fan should be expected to pay $50 for a seat and then watch the team get blown out by 40 because the organization is trying to lose.

I don't think anybody is driving 3 hrs to watch Dame play this season.

 

[Tince]

Exactly. Tanking is a bad move anyway, but tanking for this year’s draft is just stupid. The whole thing smells of desperation.

What do you see as the upside to trying hard and getting bounced in the play-in/1st round?

I'm typically all about winning, but this years seems fairly obvious to cash it in at this point. I see little upside in trying.

 

[Bingo Bango]

I don't think anybody is driving 3 hrs to watch Dame play this season.

I don’t think they’re driving 3 hours to watch them get blown out by 40, either.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I don’t think they’re driving 3 hours to watch them get blown out by 40, either.

Exactly my point. Nobody is being surprised. The team isn't making as much money this season, but that's the choice they made.

And the guys who are playing big minutes for Portland now are getting an opportunity to earn a contract for next season.

No victims in this situation.

 

[Bingo Bango]

I see little upside in trying.

I’ve been watching the Blazers for over 50 years, and they’ve always “tried,” no matter what their record or their prospects for making the playoffs. Even in the early years, when they were very bad, they always tried. If you’re not trying to win, the game is a farce.