Oregon Ducks 2023!

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Hoopguru, Sep 2, 2023.

  1. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Money seems to have been the answer.
     
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  2. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree. There wasn't any significant 'investment' difference between Helfrich and Mario, but they sure recruited at different levels. Now, Mario was a star-chaser to the point a lot of his highly rated recruits were borderline or outright busts. But he did elevate Oregon's recruiting ranking into the top-10

    it's a little tricky assigning value to classes when there is a coaching change and high count de-commitments. If you toss out the class that Taggart had a hand in, then Mario's class rankings were #8 - #13 (Covid) - #7. The Mario/Lanning class in 2016 was #16; Lanning's tow classes have ranked #9 and #5

    by comparison, the Helfrich/Taggart class ranked #18. The three Helfrich classes ranked #21 (2014) - #16 (2015) - #28 (2016). Chip's 3 classes ranked #13 - #11 - #15

    (by the way, in the transition class between Taggart/Mario, Oregon had 13 de-commitments)
    ********************************************************************************

    obviously, the transfer portal and NIL has changed the landscape...a lot. But it's not like Oregon has been spending NIL money and other top schools haven't

    now, I've been told a few things by somebody who is in a position to know:

    * Phil Knight has been really reluctant to get significantly involved in NIL, at least he was prior to this season. That may have changed but I'm not sure. PK believes his money is better spent on long-term investments like facilities and infrastructure and in some cases, coaching perks. He didn't want to be in a position where a highly-rated recruit, and his agent/representatives could hijack his wallet on an annual basis

    * people at Oregon believe that their overall NIL spending might not even rank in the top-10. Close, but maybe not and there are much bigger spenders out there like tOSU, Texas, Texas A&M, Miami.

    * the Oregon collectives, especially Division St. are fairly rigorous about setting NIL spending limits for specific players and specific positions and position groups, then holding the line and not engaging in bidding wars. They believe they are getting more 'bang-for-the-buck' than just about any other collective

    my hunch from talking to that guy is that the people in Oregon's NIL collectives believe that QB has to be the main focus of NIL money because the Ducks may never be able to compete on an equal basis with the elite programs for DLine talent and overall roster depth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2024
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  3. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    Rumor is that we're getting Jabbar Muhammad.
     
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  4. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    I was specifically making reference to the NIL money. There is no question Oregon has plenty of it.
     
  5. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    they do. My point was that Oregon was often recruiting at a top-10 level before NIL became a thing
     
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  6. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    They've been pouring a good amount of money into the program since 1994. Up until 2018 it was nearly impossible to get a top 10 recruiting class.
     
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  7. DaLong

    DaLong Well-Known Member

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    I had a feeling he might when I saw this quote from the 16th,
    upload_2024-1-25_0-18-6.png

    I mean, that exactly aligns with what we all see is happening here too...especially the special part. Regardless if he comes or not, it has a good chance to be a fun year.
     
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  8. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    One question that brings up in my mind. Have the recruiting classes been getting steadily better since the mid 90's? I seem to remember quite a few people saying that Phils money is helping get recruits?
     
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  9. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

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    It still comes down to the coaches. Good players will always have multiple options on where to play. Players will leave if the coach leaves. Not just the HC but the position coach as well. Phil's money leveled the playing field against the top programs, but if the coach can't recruit then the players will go elsewhere.

    Look at the Beavers and all the great players they had under Ralph. Once he left, the program has never been the same. And that was 30 years ago. It will be interesting to see if the recruiting class rankings for Alabama go down now that Saban is gone. I bet they do....at least a little. It is why coaches get paid so much.
     
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  10. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    I've been following recruiting for 15ish years and I would say Oregon's recruiting had steadily improved, but their success has not been linear despite Phil's involvement for 25 years.

    As I recall, it wasn't until the Fiesta Bowl win in 2001-02 season we saw Oregon get a big name recruit (Ngata). I'd say between 2002-2010 Oregon's recruiting was somewhat consistent. They could get a big name every other year, some solid skill players from the west coast or Texas, but really struggled to get big time recruits up front. Yes there were exceptions and there ended up being 3*-4* recruits that turned out to be better than anticipted.

    After Chip's immediate success as head coach, Oregon's recruiting improved overall, they started getting a couple solid guys up front every class, but still struggled with depth. Frankly though, I'm not sure Oregon's recruiting was as good as it should've been considering their branding and offense was on a whole different level. Come to find out, Chip isn't that great of a recruiter. Then under Helfrich, recruiting took a serious dive, especially considering he also made it to a national championship game in the 2014 season.

    Within a year, I'd say Taggart was already the best recruiting head coach Oregon had, part of that being he had guys like Mario on staff who was an elite position recruiter. This was the first time I thought Oregon could sustain being at or around a Top 10 class that had some balance to it. After Taggart bounced, Mario took it recruiting to another level, focusing very heavily on the trenches for the first time, specifically, his speciality on the offensive line. Lanning though has taking recruiting up another notch and I'm not even sure he alone is a better recruiter than Mario, but he's put together a staff that is relentless.

    So, have the resources Phil given to Oregon helped recruiting? Yes. Does the relationship with Nike help? Yes. Do these new rules regarding NIL help? Yes. But I would push back at anyone who says players are coming to Oregon because of Nike money. Taggart, Mario, and Lanning were elite recruiters prior to coming to Oregon. Mullens clearly has prioritized hiring a head coach who can bring in talent first. Phil Knight + Justin Wilcox wouldn't be producing top 10 classes, let alone top 5 classes. Oregon moving into the top 5 territory always seemed impossible to me simply because of geography, but it's happening.

    Not sure I really answered your question, sorry about that!
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2024
  11. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    It was a great post. Nice to read and I got plenty from it.
     
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  12. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Actually this whole thread is very informative. I'm getting quite a bit from all of you.
     
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  13. HailBlazers

    HailBlazers RipCity

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    Agreed. These nerds know their $hit.
     
  14. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    good post

    as a long time Duck fan I want to add some context: under Bellotti I think Oregon use to do about the best job in the country at identifying underrated talent and then developing that talent and coaching them up (Mike Riley was good at this too). Now, that was back in the days when it was a lot more regional recruiting. California, Washington, Hawaii, Oregon. Word of mouth recruiting. Less air miles and more actual seeing the players live at high school venues. Back in the day when 247, Rivals, On3 were very minor players and the star-ratings systems weren't a thing at all

    Oregon almost never was able to recruit 4-star talent on the OLine. What they did was resort to a 'grow-your-own' philosophy. They recruited the 3-star and 2-star and no-star kids who were long and rangy and then developed them into cohesive OLines. The result was that in the latter part of the Bellotti years, and Chip's tenure, and the first half of Helfich's tenure, IIRC, Oregon led the Pac-12 in rushing for 11 straight seasons. And the Duck Olines weren't big and heavy. But they were incredibly mobile and adept at getting to the 2nd level and blocking. Steve Greatwood was a master at this and Bellotti even said that Greatwood was the "best evaluator of HS talent he ever saw"

    I doubt that would even be possible now. The star-ratings and class rankings are huge deals. They are integral to branding and keeping elite teams elite. And I'd think coaches are working 70-80 hour weeks all the time now. National recruiting means a lot more air miles and a lot less of actually seeing a player live and more watching video. And a lot more reliance on these recruiting services and websites. Just another way that things are evolving and another way they may not be heading in a good direction
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2024
  15. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for adding this Wiz, great stuff!

    How much weight would you put on the theory "Oregon got <<insert recruit>> because of Nike money" that if often written?
     
  16. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

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    I would be interested in seeing a recent history of injuries and recovery time from injuries for the Ducks compared to other big programs. Phil Knight has gifted amazing facilities to many of the sports teams at Oregon but one thing that stands out is the focus on the training, health, and meals, what is best for the players.
     
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  17. Predator

    Predator The Godfather

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    Obviously not Wiz…

    But I honestly don’t think that’s really a thing, it still comes down to recruiting.

    For example, Walter Nolen probably had equivalent offers from all his suitors. It comes down to personal factors, preferences and recruiting.

    I’m sure Jabbar is getting similar offers from schools. Same scenario.

    More NIL just means more opportunities, but you’re not solely gonna get a player from NIL.

    No one is just running around offering players 5x what other schools are offering.

    Now if the case was “we wouldn’t have this class without Nike money” that’s probably correct, because you need to have the money to open the door to recruit said player … but that’s no different than any other school.
     
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  18. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    I agree. The Jabbar recruitment might be a great example of just this. He is from Texas, has a cousin playing on the team, and Texas' resources are unmatched, yet Oregon appears to be the favorite over Texas to land him.

    That's nuts!
     
  19. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    well, first there needs to be a distinction between Nike money and Phil Knight money. Nike is not pouring million into Oregon without reciprocity. They have a business arrangement with the school; and they also have business arrangements with lots of schools.

    obviously, PK made his fortune from Nike so I guess you could say there's a connection. But that's really just quibbling the source of hundreds of millions. Pocket change for guys like us

    I think Oregon's sports marketing program may have directly brought more recruits in than PK's money. At least on a literal level. PK's money certainly upgraded Oregon's facilities to an elite level and that can sure leave a good impression with recruits. And obviously Oregon has spent 25 years on a branding campaign and uniforms supplied by Nike are part of that

    but in the new age of NIL, all bets are off the table....and stuffed into bags

    I think the theory about 'Nike Money' swaying recruits is mostly what fans of other teams tell themselves when Oregon outworks them and lands the recruit they wanted
     
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  20. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    The last line is exactly how I feel!

    Nike is not invested in Oregon winning. Phil on the other hand....
     
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