Trent.

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Scalma, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. Scalma

    Scalma Well-Known Member

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    I think its the perfect time to bring this allll the way around and say Trent is the ideal guard to play next to Lillard. Doesn’t need the ball but can still get his own shot if need be, plus shooter, defends, ideal size.
     
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  2. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    how could I forget that marvelous game 7 that CJ fans bring up a dozen times a week!!....maybe because if it wasn't for Dame and Hood, there never would have been a game 7.

    where was CJ in the next round when the Warriors were doubling Dame constantly with Klay and Iggy and Livingston, and trapping him with Green and Looney? He was over in the corner shooting 39% on FG's, 35% on three's and 65% on FT's while carrying a TS% of .481 (hint: that's horrible), an offensive rating under 100, and the worst defensive rating on the team. When an opponent sells out their defense to stop Dame, that's when Portland's 31M/year SG has to pick up the slack. But CJ attempted 14 more FG's than Dame and scored 3 less points....while being single covered

    and that's what I'm talking about. Portland eventually runs into a team that sells out their defense to stop Dame. The Warriors have done it 3 times and the Pelicans did it once; Denver last year did it too but they didn't have the back court length of the Warriors or Pelicans. The same defensive scheme for 17 straight games in the close-out series of the playoffs. That's where CJ is supposed to step in and save the day in this 'a-team-needs-2-guys-who-can-create-their-own-shot' theory CJ fans are advocating. But CJ doesn't step in and save the day because he doesn't have the ability or talent to do so. Yeah, he can create his own shot at about average efficiency, which isn't good enough for the first option. But he has never punished that type of defense enough to make the opponent adjust.

    that's because the theory is bullshit. Portland needs somebody talented enough to create their own shot AND run the offense when opponents are putting Dame in a straight-jacket. CJ can't run the offense and he doesn't make teammates better. At the very least, the Blazers need an offensive system that doesn't break down and stall when Dame isn't running it

    if CJ was as good as you are implying, Portland wouldn't be 1-16 in those close-out playoff series, having lost 14 in a row, with the 1 win coming against a Warrior team without Curry
     
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  3. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    Agreed, if we can get a more dynamic forward. With younger Melo, it would be perfect.
     
  4. B-Roy

    B-Roy Blazer Fan

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    I remember when people were comparing Dame/Wes to Steph/Klay. That should be the blueprint with Trent.
     
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  5. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    the reason I single out CJ for failing when Dame is double and triple teamed is because he's being single covered while using almost as many possessions as Dame, attempting as many FG's, and hogging 25% of the salary cap. That kind of usage and salary demands accountability. When he's making 2.5 times what Nurkic is making or 5 times what Hood is making he needs to have a bigger impact on playoff wins. Olshey has made it so that Portland HAS to depend on CJ to carry the burden of winning when Dame is taken out of the equation.

    as for the shock value...yeah, it's kind of shocking how bad Portland has been when they face the same defense for 4 straight seasons in the playoffs
     
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  6. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    It's such a meaningless stat. Closeout record? No shit it sucks. Everyone except the warriors and LeBron over the past decade has a shockingly bad record.

    There are so many other stats to cite that CJ sucks why does no one else call you on on this nonsense?
     
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  7. Wizard Mentor

    Wizard Mentor Wizard Mentor

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    Almost feels like it should be a poll: Is Trent a CJ replacement?

    My problem with CJ is his salary - one could make the argument that he's a "bad contract". I'm not sure whether
    it's true or not, but I'd listen to arguments.
     
  8. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    what nonsense?

    people in this thread were saying Portland needs CJ because his ability to create his own shot is necessary when Dame gets doubled and trapped. In this thread it was said. It was the argument against the idea that Trent could be the starting SG. Trent "can't create his own shot"...but CJ can

    so then, I'd think the next logical step would be if only Portland had a way to test if CJ's shot-creation was actually effective against a defense that sells out to stop Dame. And conveniently...the Blazers have already taken the test and failed. They only had one right answer out of 17.

    I don't really care that much if a lot of people want CJ to remain a Blazer and the starting SG for the foreseeable future. I don't, but that's all a matter of opinion & bias. However, I am going to push back when those people offer hollow reasons for that preference and CJ's one-on-one ability is a hollow reason mainly because he's not nearly as good at it as many here think
     
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  9. HailBlazers

    HailBlazers RIPcity

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    No, he (CJ) is what he's always should have been: a super sixth man.

    It's easy to argue, but Stats be damned, CJ provides something of significant value in playoff basketball when buckets are hard to come by.
     
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  10. Hey

    Hey Active Member

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    If we need a shot creator as a safety valve for Dame, we could get one for 1/3 of the price of CJ like Derrick Rose. I think Ant will probably get there in a couple years. Yeah Ant sucks right now but you can see the flashes of a great iso player, he just needs the reps. In the meantime, Melo can fit in decently as that end-of-the-shotclock iso player just fine. If we can get LaMarcus or a solid wing like Aaron Gordon for CJ, I'd be ecstatic.
     
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  11. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    Not that it matters, but both Harden & Giannis are 1st options on the team - not 2nd.

    Also, this is a really dumb metric to use - but since you asked:

    Harden: (8-16 for 0.333 wining percentage)

    '19: 2-4
    '18: 3-4
    '17: 2-4
    '16: 1-4

    Giannis: (7-12 for 0.368 winning percentage)
    '19: 2-4
    '18: 3-4
    '17: 2-4
    '16: N/A

    CJ: (1-16 for 0.059 winning percentage)
    '19: 0-4
    '18: 0-4
    '17: 0-4
    '16: 1-4

    Over the last 4 years, both Houston & Milwaukee have been much more competitive in the closeout series than Portland has been... I'm not sure how that helps your argument.
     
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  12. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    Thanks for pulling that out. It's not really indicative of anything, which is what I've been saying. Not forcing a game 5 while getting swept really doesn't mean much at all.

    That said, I don't think your calculation is correct. What is your definition of "closeout" game? Is it only when we're losing the series? I thought it also applied to games in which we were ahead in the series and closed it out, ie game 5 vs OKC.
     
  13. Pinwheel1

    Pinwheel1 Well-Known Member

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    I would if I cared enough to list every one starting with Jon Koncak.
     
  14. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    agree...and we already have a template: I think the Dame/Matthews pairing had a better mesh than the Dame/CJ pairing. Now, one thing that made it better was that Portland had Batum at SF to be the 2nd facilitator in the offense. Batum was good at the role because he had a low usage rate and didn't hold the ball long. He wasn't good at dribble-drives, but he was really good at quick touches and finding people in scoring position. The offense flowed better with Batum as the 2nd distributor than it does with CJ

    Olshey has paid lip service to the idea of building a team around Dame's talent, but his primary choice as a building block doesn't make a lot of sense. The Warriors recognized they wouldn't optimize their roster with Curry and Monta Ellis dominating the ball and offense, so they made a change. I think Portland is in a similar boat but it's pretty obvious they won't be changing course
     
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  15. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    CJ is more than just an iso player. He makes nearly 2 catch and shoot threes per game at a 48% clip.
     
  16. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    I used the closeout series. As far as games go:

    Harden: (4-5 for 0.444 wining percentage)
    '19: 1-1
    '18: 2-2
    '17: 1-1
    '16: 0-1

    Giannis: (3-3 for 0.500 winning percentage)
    '19: 2-1
    '18: 1-1
    '17: 0-1
    '16: N/A

    CJ: (3-4 for 0.429 winning percentage)
    '19: 3-1
    '18: 0-1
    '17: 0-1
    '16: 0-1

    Again, not sure this says much (if anything).
     
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  17. illmatic99

    illmatic99 formerly yuyuza1

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    Thanks for pointing out how even more useless this stat is.
     
  18. lawai'a

    lawai'a Well-Known Member

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    beyond the CJ drama. it is probably a false memory, driven by some internal narrative, but it seems that in playoff series including the one's we lost, in games we won, where the other team was going all in on dame, role players like Aminu and Mo hitting their open looks, were the difference between winning and losing. seems like the clipper series was one instance where in the games they were on was the difference between winning and losing the games they were not. GTjr will hopefully be one of those taking and making those and making other teams pay for this strategy. Ariza and melo too. i feel much better about GTjr and ariza taking those shots, or even dribbling-driving, than i was ever comfortable with aminu or harkless doing the same. color me optimistic about our playoff potential with GTjr's emergence.
     
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  19. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    That is great. He should be doing more catch & shooting! I don't think any of us 'CJ haters' would have an issue with him increasing his catch & shoot role.

    He needs to minimize his dribbling & iso plays. He's not nearly as good at that as he or Neil believes.
     
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  20. Scalma

    Scalma Well-Known Member

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    only been begging for that for two years.
     
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