CJ "Hating"

[blazerkor]

So a lot in here get labeled by others as CJ haters, I know that I get that a lot. I just wanted to make a thread that gave those that feel they've been labeled as that a chance to define what they feel about CJ and his fit on this team and for me at least, put those feelings to bed because my expression of them has become redundant and doesn't need to take any more space in this forum after this post.

So I'll say my piece and unless I have a very specific complaint about something that happens in a game or see some credible rumors about trades, I'm just going to start supporting CJ along with the rest of our team. I waited until a bit after the trade deadline to do this last season because at that point the roster was set and it seemed pointless to complain about personnel but I just decided that posting my thoughts now and being positive after that would be even more effective for this upcoming season.

So CJ seems like such a good guy and such a smart guy. I think he is going to have a great second career in broadcasting. I think he's just on the fringe of being an all star as a combo guard if he was the lead guard. When he has the ball he is one of the most dangerous scorers in the league. He has one of the best handles and it's very unique. I'm pretty sure he has every shot a guard can have in his bag. When he isn't having to worry about getting his shots up he's a very competent passer as well. That's a lot of love I have for CJ. I'm sure a lot in here agree with these things.

At the same time I think that CJ is a horrible fit with Dame. I think for all of the great things I just said that he is miles behind Dame on offense. That's not an insult because I think Dame is arguably the best offensive lead guard in the league right now and CJ's not close to that. You would think it a great thing to have two guys this talented offensively but it just hasn't turned out that way. They play with no cohesive flow together and seem to be stepping all over each other despite how close they say they are.

I blame this on two things. First, CJ (at least every time he touches the ball) seems to think he is the man and second, Dame is just too damn cool with CJ to put him in his place. Maybe a third thing is Stotts not setting a clear enough pecking order and/or enforcing it. This leads to ball stalling, one on five, MeJ shit that I just can't stand instead of an offense that makes sense. That offense would mostly be Dame looking to score or assist in a number of ways and when defenses took that away, the ball moves and we get great shots because of how much defenses have to do to take Dame away. Instead CJ makes bad decisions.

That's on offense where CJ is strong. On defense CJ is absolutely terrible, there's no getting around that. He's slow laterally, he makes bad decisions over-committing and playing bad angles, he's not an explosive straight line or vertical athlete and he's undersized. I also don't think he gives half of the effort he could, which happens at times when someone is so bad at something. This is a bigger problem because it is compacted by the fact that Dame is just an average defender.

Those are my thoughts, I know they're redundant but no one has to worry about me voicing them anymore. I would invite everyone to share their thoughts on CJ if you are someone labeled as hating him or doing the labeling. I hope a lot of people post on this thread for the next very little while and then this thing dies and we can move forward supporting our team and address specific problems we see moment to moment instead of doggedly commenting about things that aggravate us incessantly.

 

[Scalma]

Thanks for the novel, will read it on my next flight.

 

[HailBlazers]

Hate how damn selfish and blind he can be, don't think it will ever stop aggravating me unfortunately.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

tl; dr

That being said, I really think the CJ “hate” is that he isn’t the best fit as “Robin” to Dame’s “Batman”. In most cases of a star player next to CJ, CJ would be a better fit. The overlap of styles is a bit redundant. At least for me, that’s my frustration. But I appreciate that CJ does have some top-level offensive skills. We could certainly be in a worse position, but the redundancy does not allow for maximum efficiency.

If all that makes sense....

 

[TBpup]

No hate here....in fact I think CJ could really be amazing.....on another team. But here, with Dame, it's just not going to happen to his full potential because they are too similar and neither is able to step it up to be above average on the defensive end. This has been proven for years now and sadly, it is what it is.

 

[Buffalo Custard]

People don't "hate" CJ. I've seen Blazer fan hate - Sheed, Bonzi, Zebo - and the way CJ is spoken of doesn't come close!

 

[e_blazer]

The way I see it, there’s zero chance Olshey is going to give up on the Dame /CJ pairing until he sees how it works with a good roster. He’s assembled a good roster. This is the acid test where he’s either going to be proven right or else be faced with having to deal with moving CJ.

 

[Natebishop3]

CJ would have been an amazing spark plug off the bench in the same vein as a Jamal Crawford, and I would have welcomed that role for him with open arms...... but he doesn't come off the bench. He starts for us and he's paid like a superstar.

He is a gifted scorer, but he doesn't pass the ball and he doesn't play defense. Pair that with his size and the fact that Dame is basically the same player only a better scorer, better passer, better defender......

Mostly I'm just tired of seeing the same thing play out every damn year.

 

[Tince]

Deep down, I don't think people hate CJ or his game, they hate that he makes so much money and ruins our ability to add another much needed star piece to the roster. This, however, is placing the blame at the person accepting the contract, not the person offering it.

 

[Natebishop3]

Deep down, I don't think people hate CJ or his game, they hate that he makes so much money and ruins our ability to add another much needed star piece to the roster. This, however, is placing the blame at the person accepting the contract, not the person offering it.

I get pretty frustrated with his selfish black hole style play. He doesn't pass, despite playing backup point guard for us. He's a pretty massive liability when he isn't hitting his shots.

 

[TBpup]

Deep down, I don't think people hate CJ or his game, they hate that he makes so much money and ruins our ability to add another much needed star piece to the roster. This, however, is placing the blame at the person accepting the contract, not the person offering it.

I would guess most realistic Blazers fans aren't impressed with the return for the money that Olshey has thrown about.

 

[Further]

I like CJ, I'm glad he's a Blazer, I just wish he were cheaper and played a 27mpg microwave game.

But imagine how good he would be next to Simmons on the 6ers. He would never have to guard anyone but the smallest opponent and his shooting would do wonders for Simmons and Embiid. Like Seth Curry on steroids. But that's just not his fit on the Blazers.

Hopefully with more legit defenders, his weaknesses won't be so evident this year and his strengths will still be on full display.

 

[Natebishop3]

CJ is basically a shorter Melo who is making 30x the money.

 

[B-Roy]

Deep down, I don't think people hate CJ or his game, they hate that he makes so much money and ruins our ability to add another much needed star piece to the roster. This, however, is placing the blame at the person accepting the contract, not the person offering it.

I think most people would be fine with it if he showed that he's actually worth that contract.

So then it comes down to him not being good enough to warrant his contract, which just goes back to his play.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think most people would be fine with it if he showed that he's actually worth that contract.

So then it comes down to him not being good enough to warrant his contract, which just goes back to his play.

He's worth the contract..... a handful of games a year. That's it.

 

[Buffalo Custard]

CJ is basically a shorter Melo who is making 30x the money.

His on court contribution reminds me of Randolph. Different person off the court, but I'm of the opinion some fans spend too much energy worrying about that.

 

[BonesJones]

C.J. is the most constantly underrated player on this team. The nitpicking of everything he does wrong gets tiresome... A lot of criticism he gets is legitimate but it's usually overexaggerated and people use it to ignore the good things he does for the team. The fact that some people only want to play him 25-27 minutes per game is mind-boggling to me. Some people in here would cut CJ's minutes by 10 and give them to Anfernee... That doesn't make us a better team.

He provides on outlet to relieve pressure off Dame. His playmaking improved last season. He bails out our stagnant ass offense consistently. When Dame is struggling, C.J. often times picks up the slack and gets going himself. When Dame has it going, C.J. happily defers and spaces the court. I feel like if we had Bradley Beal all these years, people would be saying the same thing about him. He's an overrated defender and very similar to C.J. Put C.J. in a similar situation as Beal and he's getting you 28-29ppg with 5-6apg. We have a guy that'd be a legitimate all-star if he had his own team, but he's willing to defer to our superstar and happily plays a great 2nd fiddle to him. And people want to bench him and cut his minutes or trade him for a big that struggles to shoot 40% from the field and 30% from 3... It's ridiculous to me.

I get pretty frustrated with his selfish black hole style play. He doesn't pass, despite playing backup point guard for us. He's a pretty massive liability when he isn't hitting his shots.

4.4 assists per game in a slow-it-down offense with mediocre talent around him, but he doesn't pass?

This is a perfect example of the drastic overexaggerations I'm talking about.

 

[BonesJones]

I think most people would be fine with it if he showed that he's actually worth that contract.

So then it comes down to him not being good enough to warrant his contract, which just goes back to his play.

Is Bradley Beal worth his contract? If so than C.J. is too. Anyone who consistently gets 20ppg and can provide ball-handling and some playmaking is worth near a max contract.

Let C.J. have his own team and no one would be saying he's not worth his contract.

 

[BonesJones]

I like CJ, I'm glad he's a Blazer, I just wish he were cheaper and played a 27mpg microwave game.

But imagine how good he would be next to Simmons on the 6ers. He would never have to guard anyone but the smallest opponent and his shooting would do wonders for Simmons and Embiid. Like Seth Curry on steroids. But that's just not his fit on the Blazers.

Hopefully with more legit defenders, his weaknesses won't be so evident this year and his strengths will still be on full display.

We can have a top 10 defense with C.J. McCollum playing 34-36mpg as our starting SG. Just takes a combination of personnel (check) and good coaching (we'll have to wait and see on that).

With C.J. McCollum playing 34-36mpg as our starting SG, we have the potential to have a top 3 offense even with mediocre players at every position.

His "poor fit" on this team is overblown.

The way I see it, there’s zero chance Olshey is going to give up on the Dame /CJ pairing until he sees how it works with a good roster. He’s assembled a good roster. This is the acid test where he’s either going to be proven right or else be faced with having to deal with moving CJ.

Agreed. I just wish we could see the pairing with a good roster AND a good coach (maybe Stotts coaches well next year?).

 

[BonesJones]

At the same time I think that CJ is a horrible fit with Dame. I think for all of the great things I just said that he is miles behind Dame on offense. That's not an insult because I think Dame is arguably the best offensive lead guard in the league right now and CJ's not close to that. You would think it a great thing to have two guys this talented offensively but it just hasn't turned out that way. They play with no cohesive flow together and seem to be stepping all over each other despite how close they say they are.

I blame this on two things. First, CJ (at least every time he touches the ball) seems to think he is the man and second, Dame is just too damn cool with CJ to put him in his place. Maybe a third thing is Stotts not setting a clear enough pecking order and/or enforcing it. This leads to ball stalling, one on five, MeJ shit that I just can't stand instead of an offense that makes sense. That offense would mostly be Dame looking to score or assist in a number of ways and when defenses took that away, the ball moves and we get great shots because of how much defenses have to do to take Dame away. Instead CJ makes bad decisions.

That's on offense where CJ is strong. On defense CJ is absolutely terrible, there's no getting around that. He's slow laterally, he makes bad decisions over-committing and playing bad angles, he's not an explosive straight line or vertical athlete and he's undersized. I also don't think he gives half of the effort he could, which happens at times when someone is so bad at something. This is a bigger problem because it is compacted by the fact that Dame is just an average defender.

Those are my thoughts, I know they're redundant but no one has to worry about me voicing them anymore. I would invite everyone to share their thoughts on CJ if you are someone labeled as hating him or doing the labeling. I hope a lot of people post on this thread for the next very little while and then this thing dies and we can move forward supporting our team and address specific problems we see moment to moment instead of doggedly commenting about things that aggravate us incessantly.

99% of the league is "miles behind Dame on offense". But C.J. has shown that he can play at an extremely high-level with Dame out, so to say C.J. isn't close to being a top-level lead guard is false, IMO.

CJ's "selfishness" gets extremely overblown in my eyes. C.J. happily defers to Dame when he has it going, and I'm baffled as to how a guy who people say "never passes" can average 4.4apg over the course of a season.

I also don't see how CJ and Dame are a horrible fit for offensive reasons, when they can be paired with 3 average-to-below-average offensive players and still be one of the most productive offensive lineups in the league. The only reason this offense works is because we have two elite iso-scorers, not in spite of it. "No cohesive flow" isn't because of the Dame and C.J. pairing... Stotts' offense is designed to have players create off the dribble from the perimeter, whether it's through pick n roll, isolation, or catch-and-go...

Think about the flares that C.J. runs off of... once C.J. catches the ball, the play is basically dead, no one is moving, and he's supposed to make something happen off the dribble. Then when C.J. tries to make something happen, you have a ton of people bitching about him trying to make something happen off the dribble... Basically, I think you're mistakenly blaming the backcourt pairing for the lack of "cohesive flow". Our ball-movement isn't any better without C.J. in the game, yet C.J. gets blamed for it.

People underrate having a 2nd guy that can handle the ball, make plays, and initiate offense. Dame's job gets MUCH more difficult on the offensive end with a Gary Trent Jr. at the 2 in place of C.J.

His defense is bad, but bad guard defense can be covered by a solid backline while bad forward/center defense can't, and good offensive guards can generally have more control of the offense than good offensive bigs. So having a poor defensive guard who's really good offensively mixed with an average defensive guard and 3 really good defenders in the frontcourt is completely fine. That type of combination gives you a chance at having a top 10 defense and a top 5 offense.

 

[BonesJones]

tl; dr

That being said, I really think the CJ “hate” is that he isn’t the best fit as “Robin” to Dame’s “Batman”. In most cases of a star player next to CJ, CJ would be a better fit. The overlap of styles is a bit redundant. At least for me, that’s my frustration. But I appreciate that CJ does have some top-level offensive skills. We could certainly be in a worse position, but the redundancy does not allow for maximum efficiency.

If all that makes sense....

Makes sense. There's very few robins that'd allow for "maximum efficiency" and I feel like the redundancy isn't much of a legitimate issue, or at least it hasn't been explained in true basketball terms to me.

Get a coach who has a fluid offensive system that emphasizes ball movement and I feel like C.J. would play a better, less iso-heavy style of basketball and people would say that our backcourt is a perfect offensive fit together.

 

[kjironman1]

I'm thinking this thread will stick around for awhile. Most likely the season?
I think there has been a comparable thread pretty much every year since after the Memphis series that CJ played well and was expected to "Break Out" the following season 2015-16. He got "Most Improved Player" award.
Every year since he has averaged over 20 points a game. Almost a 40% three point shooter for his career.
I know very few players that can put up 50 in three quarters.

Same story different year. CJ McCollum plays his game and he does it here under Damian Lillard. You want to hate on CJ so be it. This is a grass is greener situation for me.

 

[Buffalo Custard]

Part of the frustration here is that with Olshey as GM we are pinned between 2 non-negotiable points. He will not fire Stotts and he will not trade CJ. The organization has to constantly work around this inflexibility.

 

[tester551]

I like CJ, I'm glad he's a Blazer, I just wish he were cheaper and played a 27mpg microwave game.

But imagine how good he would be next to Simmons on the 6ers. He would never have to guard anyone but the smallest opponent and his shooting would do wonders for Simmons and Embiid. Like Seth Curry on steroids. But that's just not his fit on the Blazers.

Hopefully with more legit defenders, his weaknesses won't be so evident this year and his strengths will still be on full display.

Not so sure I agree with that comp.
I have never felt like Seth stopped the ball. He either took the immediate C&S or passed the ball.

 

[TBpup]

It's curious to me how discussing a player's pros but also bringing up the cons, constitutes 'hating'.

 

[BonesJones]

Part of the frustration here is that with Olshey as GM we are pinned between 2 non-negotiable points. He will not fire Stotts and he will not trade CJ. The organization has to constantly work around this inflexibility.

He literally just acquired specific players to push Stotts and went as far as publically calling on him to improve. He's setting this year up to he a make or break year for Stotts.

 

[BonesJones]

It's curious to me how discussing a player's pros but also bringing up the cons, constitutes 'hating'.

That's not hating.

A lot of the CJ-related stuff on here is hating, though.

 

[RR7]

It's curious to me how discussing a player's pros but also bringing up the cons, constitutes 'hating'.

I'd say its often in the delivery. Its generally not a list of pros and cons, there's often far greater weight put into the discussion of the cons of his game by many. Or the pros part is an aside, yes he does this, BUT...

 

[PCmor7]

It's curious to me how discussing a player's pros but also bringing up the cons, constitutes 'hating'.

For me, it's always been that I see a lot more being harping continuously on the cons and forgetting the pros.

When I see trade ideas for (insert random average starting wing who plays adequate defense) for CJ and a significant or at least vocal portion of the board even saying we couldn't get (insert random average starting wing who plays adequate defense) for CJ, it's ridiculous and I find it personally irritating because I see it so much.

Like the post above, I think this is a grass is greener situation. Fans see us falling short and having some roster deficiency and act like almost every other team in the NBA since the salary cap was implemented didn't go through the same things and deal with it less effectively. A lot of players get more money than they're worth.

There are any number of other things that could be blamed. One that sometimes gets thrown out there but never stays in the discussion for long is that Portland for whatever reason isn't a destination that any high-profile free agent is going to consider and you have to overpay for them. When you draft a star player -- and CJ is a star player, regardless of what some people will say -- you either need to hold onto them or you need to find someone as good or better for a similar price. Does anyone think the Blazers would get fair return on the trade market or in free agency for letting CJ go? I think the odds are pretty slim.

Yeah, we passed on Giannis in the 2013 draft. So did 14 other teams. Look at the guys picked before CJ. How many teams do you think wish they'd selected him instead of the guy they took, being completely honest? None of those teams kept any of those guys, and, despite the fact that some people I'm sure will try to say "Otto Porter would be a better fit" ... I live in the east and know some Wizards fans that would think those people are out of their mind.

I don't care about advanced metrics or offensive redundancy. THE single most valuable, rarest talent in basketball is finding a player who can get their own shot and make it against a good defender. It's easier to find a pick-setter/rebounder or a 3-and-D guy than it is someone who can put a team on his back and carry them offensively for stretches, and it makes things easier for everyone around them. And, no, Gary Trent is not going to be that guy, so just stop it.

This is a case where great is the enemy of good. Or the bird in hand. Until someone can give me a really good example of an equal player the Blazers could have for equal value, I'm just going to think this is scapegoating or rationalizing why the Blazers don't do what only one team in the NBA does every year -- win it all.

 

[Big Dog]

It's curious to me how discussing a player's pros but also bringing up the cons, constitutes 'hating'.

Maybe because 90% of posts about CJ is negative. Reading this forum one might conclude CJ is the worst player on the team.