Retool or rebuild

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in

Retool or rebuild

  • 1. Retool around Dame and trade some youth

    Votes: 18 40.0%

  • 2. Rebuild trade Dame, Nurk and let Grant go in free agency

    Votes: 17 37.8%

  • 3. Keep Ant, Dame, Sharpe and this years draft pick and run with it

    Votes: 10 22.2%
  • Total voters
    45
BankTeller said:
Is everyone convinced Ant will never become the same catch-and-shoot guy he once was again?

We still don’t actually know what the lineup looks like with Simons coming off the bench. I think it’s worth at least trying before saying ‘trade him, he doesn’t work with Dame’.

If he really studied under Dame, I think he would know that the best thing to do in that situation is at least is try it out. Jordan Poole is making more money than him and he’s only started half the season.

Draft the best available talent with the lotto pick. Use or trade the NYK pick for a difference maker or draft someone with potential to fill a spot of the future (Dereck Lively is someone I’d love if Schmitz thinks he’s the right fit). Re-sign Grant. Sign/trade a real C and SF. Let the young guys keep growing.

Run it back.
Click to expand...
You watched this season and thought, "Tinker with things a little and then RUN IT BACK."? Thanks Olshey but I think we've had enough of that.

I don't think Ant is coming off of the bench mostly because if we do use draft picks to acquire a difference maker Ant's salary will be needed just to start to match the salary of a proven difference maker.
 
Suppose you were told that it has to be retool, that rebuild isn't even an option. What would you think of something like this:

upload_2023-4-6_10-10-58.png

Main problem with this is that Grant is a FA, so his salary would change (but it can go up significantly and the numbers would work) but I have a feeling that you can't sign-and-trade somebody along with other players?

Anyway, the core of the trade is Anfernee for Butler. There's literally a DECADE difference in age. But Butler is still probably younger than Chris Paul was when the Suns traded for him, right? And he's literally better than Anfernee will ever be. That's obviously true in terms of defense, but he can also just decide to take over a game offensively and do it, and he is a culture-changer in that he will not accept losing (which is why I think he might agitate for a trade from Miami, who seem to be in a bad way this year).

The question is, would Miami want Simons? If they pair him with Herro that's got to be the worst-defending backcourt, certainly in their history and probably in the NBA. They would have to just outscore teams. But they've got a very adaptable coach... (Also, the sweetener for them is that they unload Robinson.)
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Suppose you were told that it has to be retool, that rebuild isn't even an option. What would you think of something like this:

View attachment 55462

Main problem with this is that Grant is a FA, so his salary would change (but it can go up significantly and the numbers would work) but I have a feeling that you can't sign-and-trade somebody along with other players?
Click to expand...

I wondered about that a few weeks ago and Googled it. I was surprised to see that you could sign and trade with multiple players. But I would love to have someone who knows for sure verify it. Not sure that Miami would be interested, but other teams might.
 
AngryFan said:
Trade Simons and Nurk. No to trading any picks now or in the future.
Click to expand...

genuinely curious what the market return would be for these two. Plain cheerios—no strawberry or sugar draft capital on top.
 
Samuel said:
genuinely curious what the market return would be for these two. Plain cheerios—no strawberry or sugar draft capital on top.
Click to expand...

The chances of a team needing both (while giving us a player back that is better than either) are slim.
Draft picks would need to be included for a difference-maker. Maybe a 3 team trade could work.
I guess another option would be to a team for a player we like (but not necessarily love) while also taking back a bad salary.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
The chances of a team needing both (while giving us a player back that is better than either) are slim.
Draft picks would need to be included for a difference-maker. Maybe a 3 team trade could work.
I guess another option would be to a team for a player we like (but not necessarily love) while also taking back a bad salary.
Click to expand...

Yea. And there are less and less ‘bad contracts’ left in the league due to CBA changes over the years.

Ben Simmons, Duncan Robinson, Kyle Lowry, John Collins are a few that come to mind. Tobias Harris used to be on that list but he’s expiring and not a total minus player so he’s off the list now, i think.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Not sure that Miami would be interested, but other teams might.
Click to expand...

The only way they MIGHT be interested is if Butler demanded a trade. Presumably other teams would give them good offers, but maybe not great given that Butler is nearly 34. Also we'd have to sweeten the deal by taking one of their (many) terrible contracts off them (in my example, Robinson).
 
Samuel said:
Yea. And there are less and less ‘bad contracts’ left in the league due to CBA changes over the years.

Ben Simmons, Duncan Robinson, Kyle Lowry, John Collins are a few that come to mind.
Click to expand...
We're calling John Collins a bad contract now? One bad year (after his team has basically marginalized him) and he's a scrub? Man--if we could somehow acquire him in a 3-way deal sending Ant out, I would be so down for that!
 
Nurk and pick(s) for Myles Turner…

Sign Kevin Love as a free agent
 
julius said:
well, the players they "built" around Damian have been, for the most part, scrubs.
Click to expand...

They're no ordinary scrubs. They're BLAZER SCRUBS. Nothing better then listening to the podcasts yak about the terrificly talented Blazer scrubs. Heck... one of the scrubs named Anfernee Simons can shoot really good sometimes and averaged 20ppg this season!
 
PtldPlatypus said:
We're calling John Collins a bad contract now? One bad year (after his team has basically marginalized him) and he's a scrub? Man--if we could somehow acquire him in a 3-way deal sending Ant out, I would be so down for that!
Click to expand...

I don’t know if being a bad contract and a bad player are the same thing.

CJ had a bad contract but was a good player (in my opinion). Paid like an All-Star and was something less than that.

A bad contract on a good player can still net you negative roster building outcomes. It’s usually a fast track to the middle.
 
Samuel said:
I don’t know if being a bad contract and a bad player are the same thing.

CJ had a bad contract but was a good player (in my opinion). Paid like an All-Star and was something less than that.

A bad contract on a good player can still net you negative roster building outcomes. It’s usually a fast track to the middle.
Click to expand...
Totally. It's all about value: is a player outperforming his contract?

More precisely, is his net present value (present and future production, normalized for certainty) less than his contract? It's a bad deal. Equal? It's money that could probably be better spent elsewhere. Is it under? Then it's a good deal.

Of course, net present value is only as good as one's prediction of the future is. If we think Simons is going to get a LOT better, then his current contract is much better than if we think he's plateaued.

Also, with the salary cap, a contract can be of different values between teams... if a guy is worth $10m a year, but you're paying him $20m, then that's a bad contract generally, right? But if a team that's over the cap/has no opportunity costs, and can choose between a dude worth $3m for a $2m contract and a guy worth $10m on a $20m contract, then the more expensive guy adds more value to the team and that team likes him more than other teams would (see: many of Paul Allen/Bob Whitsitt's teams).

Related to the Blazers: I dunno. Haha. If the team were GOOD, then the contracts for Simons, Nurk, and Dame would make perfect sense, and re-signing Grant would be wise... even if those four guys would be paid based on the reasonable upper limit of their net present value. But given the team needs to get better, their contracts don't look as good IMO.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
We're calling John Collins a bad contract now? One bad year (after his team has basically marginalized him) and he's a scrub? Man--if we could somehow acquire him in a 3-way deal sending Ant out, I would be so down for that!
Click to expand...
Watch out, you kind of sound like me talking about Ben Simmons a year and a half ago... and I seem to have been wrong to have disputed so many in here that were saying that his value on the court had taken irreparable damage. Not saying that you're wrong, just that you could be or John Collins will have a breakout season next season. People were writing off Julius Randle (again) this time last year but he seems to have rebounded.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
We're calling John Collins a bad contract now? One bad year (after his team has basically marginalized him) and he's a scrub? Man--if we could somehow acquire him in a 3-way deal sending Ant out, I would be so down for that!
Click to expand...
That does seem ridiculous to call it a bad contract. It's basically 25 million a year. Meanwhile we have people saying we would be fortunate to have the older Grant at 30 million a year.
Even though Grant is haing a year offensively way above his average and Collins a year way below his average, their efg% about the same this year.
TRB% about 7 for Grant and 12 (career 15) for Collins.
Assist % 1 for Grant, over 5 for Collins (career over 8)
Blk % 2 for Grant 3 for Collins.
ORTG about the same this year but Collins much higher for career (and Collins is only 25)
DTRG Collins much lower at 115 to Grant's 120 and Collins career 113.
OBPM Grant quite a bit better this year but over career Collins a lot better.
DBPM about the same.
What happened to Collins anyway? Did some kind of injury slow him permanently? Trade rumors get to him?
 
Last edited:
Ed O said:
costs, and can choose between a dude worth $3m for a $2m contract and a guy worth $10m on a $20m contract, then the more expensive guy adds more value to the team and that team likes him more than other teams would (see: many of Paul Allen/Bob Whitsitt's teams).
Click to expand...

I always think about Presti and the Thunder.

They acquire 'negative contract' Chris Paul AND 2 swaps with the Rockets, AND 2 first round picks for Russell Westbrook—as they were heading into a rebuild anyway.

After a playoff appearance and 2nd team all-nba appearance, they double dip on the backend and send 'positive contract' Chris Paul to the Suns for a 2022 first and a couple of vets that they end up liquidating for even more picks.

Time (being able to wait someone out, or wait until a player's value improves—ex: Julius Randle this year) and system (cultivating an environment where a variety of different types of players can shine) are two big components of a GM's job. The Dame situation has made that Time component tricky for Cronin to navigate.
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
That does seem ridiculous to call it a bad contract. It's basically 25 million a year. Meanwhile we have people saying we would be fortunate to have the older Grant at 30 million a year.
Even though Grant is haing a year offensively way above his average and Collins a year way below his average, their efg% about the same this year.
TRB% about 7 for Grant and 12 (career 15) for Collins.
Assist % 1 for Grant, over 5 for Collins (career over 8)
Blk % 2 for Grant 3 for Collins.
ORTG about the same this year but Collins much higher for career (and Collins is only 25)
DTRG Collins much lower at 115 to Grant's 120 and Collins career 113.
OBPM Grant quite a bit better this year but over career Collins a lot better.
DBPM about the same.
What happened to Collins anyway? Did some kind of injury slow him permanently? Trade rumors get to him?
Click to expand...
Agreed. For equal money, I'd most likely prefer Collins.

One of John's issues this year has been that he's played the entire season with essentially a broken finger.
 
Whyachi said:
They're no ordinary scrubs. They're BLAZER SCRUBS. Nothing better then listening to the podcasts yak about the terrificly talented Blazer scrubs. Heck... one of the scrubs named Anfernee Simons can shoot really good sometimes and averaged 20ppg this season!
Click to expand...

Mario hezonja, Anthony toliver, Shabazz Mohamed, Nick Stauskus, Aminu, Harkless, Earl Watson, and a lot of other scrubs say hello.
 
tykendo said:
Not true. They're very good backups. Even if the Blazers win the rights to draft Wemby, and make a trade for Mikal Bridges, they still need a quality bench that can spell the starters. Watford and Eubanks are those kinda players now.
Click to expand...
Right now, both guys feel like they should only be situational backups. Not good enough to play every night, but against the right matchups are worthy of 12ish minutes.
 
Tince said:
Right now, both guys feel like they should only be situational backups. Not good enough to play every night, but against the right matchups are worthy of 12ish minutes.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that

Eubanks, because of hustle, energy, and rim protection could be an every night backup if the rest of the roster was balanced. We saw Zach and Eubanks on the same floor last night and they were at the same level, and there are several posters here who think Zach would be a great backup. Watford is only 22 and does have a lot of skills. He has decent handles, a solid perimeter shot, is a good passer for position, commendable BBIQ. I think he has a solid upside

sure, we'd all like to see 'better' backups (whatever that really means) but the last few seasons have shown that adding, and keeping, those better backups is a real tall task
 
wizenheimer said:
I don't know about that

Eubanks, because of hustle, energy, and rim protection could be an every night backup if the rest of the roster was balanced. We saw Zach and Eubanks on the same floor last night and they were at the same level, and there are several posters here who think Zach would be a great backup. Watford is only 22 and does have a lot of skills. He has decent handles, a solid perimeter shot, is a good passer for position, commendable BBIQ. I think he has a solid upside

sure, we'd all like to see 'better' backups (whatever that really means) but the last few seasons have shown that adding, and keeping, those better backups is a real tall task
Click to expand...

I liked Zach, but time ran out on his health with the Blazers. Now? Healthy? A back-up center who opts-in with the Spurs with the understanding they trade him to the Blazers into the Payton trade exception? Okay. That’s an option that could marginally improve the team … maybe, yeah. I like improving for the cost of almost nothing. I’d rather get Payton Pritchard with that spot.

I have zero hesitation in getting better back-ups BUT also zero hesitation in keeping Thybulle, Eubanks, Watford, and Walker and like doing it.
 
Knox is another interesting "backup". Not sure what to think about him. He certainly is good enough to scare the shit out of us during this tank job.
 
HoopsFanAZ said:
I have zero hesitation in getting better back-ups BUT also zero hesitation in keeping Thybulle, Eubanks, Watford, and Walker and like doing it.
Click to expand...
Generally agree, but Walker is a 14/15th guy at best.

Pinwheel1 said:
Knox is another interesting "backup". Not sure what to think about him. He certainly is good enough to scare the shit out of us during this tank job.
Click to expand...
Knox isn't good enough. Time to move on.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Knox is another interesting "backup". Not sure what to think about him. He certainly is good enough to scare the shit out of us during this tank job.
Click to expand...

yeah....where's Nolan Smith when you need him?
 
wizenheimer said:
I don't know about that

Eubanks, because of hustle, energy, and rim protection could be an every night backup if the rest of the roster was balanced. We saw Zach and Eubanks on the same floor last night and they were at the same level, and there are several posters here who think Zach would be a great backup. Watford is only 22 and does have a lot of skills. He has decent handles, a solid perimeter shot, is a good passer for position, commendable BBIQ. I think he has a solid upside

sure, we'd all like to see 'better' backups (whatever that really means) but the last few seasons have shown that adding, and keeping, those better backups is a real tall task
Click to expand...
.
Its not uncommon for minimum contract guys to be valued highly around here. I like them both at their contract value. I also feel their contract is in line with their skill level.

It's hard for me to see either of those guys as regular 16-20mpg players on a competitive roster unless it has 3 stars to support them.
 
wizenheimer said:
yeah....where's Nolan Smith when you need him?
Click to expand...
I think Mays & Knox are keepers. They actually can contribute now and going forward. Mays is the 1st "real" backup PG the Blazers have had to spell Dame in a long time. Knox is showing he has a real nice skillset. It's all about adding talent to this team. No matter what position. I don't want to slam guys, who have been on the roster and have tried hard, but it's time to let those guys move on. But Mays and Knox are contributors now. I'm intrigued by Nate Williams Jr. as well.
 
Does anyone think Dorian Finney-Smith can be had for Nas + Keon + some 2nds?

I like buying low on a high quality defender that is a threat that can shoot the ball to plug as a SF next to Grant.

I don’t like trading 1sts. I think DFS + Grant is no worse than Grant + DFS offensively with potential to he much better defensively. Thybulle plays the role of the bench that GPII would’ve played.

That would give us a chance on a swing for the BPA in the draft at both the lotto and #23 position.
 
For the REBUILD option:

It's actually pretty hard to come up with a good team for Dame, given his massive contract and age, and given that a team that traded for him would want to be able to compete pretty much immediately. Here's one suggestion that, as usual, most people will take offense at:

upload_2023-4-10_14-32-2.png

Obviously the main prize is NOT Ben Simmons, he's just what makes up the salaries. Maybe the Blazers can even get him off the roster the way they attempted to with Darius Miles and Brandon Roy (so that means the Timberwolves will try to fuck it up). If he DID manage a miraculous Markelle Fultz-esque recovery, that would just be gravy, because the main prize is Nic Claxton, who turned into an all-defense team member, and exactly plugs a hole in our roster.

No, the Nets would not give us Mikal Bridges - pairing him with Dame would be their plan. They'd be short a center after this trade, but they could surround Dame with SEVERAL 3-and-D guys. Not sure they'd go the expensive superstar route again so soon after being burned by KD and Kyrie, though.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
For the REBUILD option:

It's actually pretty hard to come up with a good team for Dame, given his massive contract and age, and given that a team that traded for him would want to be able to compete pretty much immediately. Here's one suggestion that, as usual, most people will take offense at:

View attachment 55504

Obviously the main prize is NOT Ben Simmons, he's just what makes up the salaries. Maybe the Blazers can even get him off the roster the way they attempted to with Darius Miles and Brandon Roy (so that means the Timberwolves will try to fuck it up). If he DID manage a miraculous Markelle Fultz-esque recovery, that would just be gravy, because the main prize is Nic Claxton, who turned into an all-defense team member, and exactly plugs a hole in our roster.

No, the Nets would not give us Mikal Bridges - pairing him with Dame would be their plan. They'd be short a center after this trade, but they could surround Dame with SEVERAL 3-and-D guys. Not sure they'd go the expensive superstar route again so soon after being burned by KD and Kyrie, though.
Click to expand...
That's some serious trash. A haul of complete epic, putrid gahhhhbidge. And i totally disagree the Nets wouldn't trade Bridges for the #2 pick if we got it. Brooklyn fans want splashy. Bridges is a fantantic role player. But if they had a chance to get ol' Scooter, who many in here say is the "truth". The Nets woulkd be all over it.
 
tykendo said:
That's some serious trash. A haul of complete epic, putrid gahhhhbidge. And i totally disagree the Nets wouldn't trade Bridges for the #2 pick if we got it. Brooklyn fans want splashy. Bridges is a fantantic role player. But if they had a chance to get ol' Scooter, who many in here say is the "truth". The Nets woulkd be all over it.
Click to expand...
You keep acting as if Bridges was the same player he was on the Suns. Did you not see him turn into a total star on the Nets? Were you not paying attention?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top