Trading for established star -- what's not being talked about

[PCmor7]

We've got a lot of threads and posts about Dame's comment about not wanting to play with more young players and having to wait for them to develop to help him make Portland a winner, the implications of that comment in relation to what we do with the third pick and the critique of the Blazer front office in making something happen.

You know what is getting no attention? Dame's role in making something happen.

Dame said in the very same quote that he knows players that want to come to Portland. OK, then Dame needs to put his money where his mouth is and get those players to force their way to Portland.

When Kawhi went to the Clippers, OKC didn't have to trade Paul George there. Paul George made it clear to the Thunder he wanted traded to LAC.

The Pelicans weren't obligated to trade Anthony Davis to the Lakers, but Davis made that happen.

These other teams are going to hold a Blazer team short on assets hostage to trade for a star unless the stars Dame say want to be in Portland turn the tables and let their teams know they want traded and they want traded to play with Dame.

That's how you gain leverage so you aren't robbing Peter to pay Paul (acquiring a player you need to win a championship by sending out a player you need to win a championship). That's how you get a Pascal Siakam or Jaylen Brown level of player without overpaying to acquire them.

At some point, if these players really want to be here, they need to let their current teams know that. It can't just be going to Dame and saying "I'd love to play on your team" and Dame going to Cronin saying "You know Joel wants to play here." It's in those players and the Blazers best interest to drive down the price.

 

[Labinot41]

I get what you're saying, but remember, the Clippers gave up massive assets in that trade. Also the Lakers gave up a ton for AD even though he wanted to go to the Lakers and only had one or two years left on his deal. Just because a Star players want's to get traded to a certain team, that doesn't mean that Team won't have to give up massive value in order to get gim.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Dame basically did this with Grant, and it may have contributed to Cronin not overpaying. Remember prior to the draft, there were Pistons and NBA fans saying the Blazers would give up #7 for Grant. Have to admit I was scared there might be a chance at it. In the end Cronin only gave up a protected future first.

I do think its bizarre Dame has been so public with his comments though, and that Cronin has also been so open of trading the pick for a veteran. It certainly could impact Cronin's negotiations with other teams, and even contribute to those teams hesitancy to send a star to Portland.

 

[PCmor7]

I get what you're saying, but remember, the Clippers gave up massive assets in that trade. Also the Lakers gave up a ton for AD even though he wanted to go to the Lakers and only had one or two years left on his deal. Just because a Star players want's to get traded to a certain team, that doesn't mean that Team won't have to give up massive value in order to get gim.

True, but with a couple of caveats.

First, if George doesn't force that trade, OKC doesn't blow up their whole team and rebuild. They remain a top contender. Second, they traded two actual players, IIRC, and one still was more a prospect than a player. Presuming Kawhi and George didn't underachieve like they have, all of the draft picks the Thunder got in the trade were likely to be between 24 and 30, which really isn't prime real estate for star players.

Essentially, that trade would have been George for SGA and probably a 2-3 players that are either filling out the bottom of your starting lineup or coming off the bench, and that's not really a gigantic price to pay for a six-time all-star.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

There is a lot of what is not being talked about concerning Dame.

At times the Blazers have needed a power forward or center, why won't Dame ever play any of those positions? Magic Johnson played center, why won't Dame?

Also why are we paying Dame all this money if he won't buy the team? Instead, he bought a car dealership, why don't people talk about how Dame clearly loves cars more than he loves basketball?

 

[e_blazer]

This isn't a case of trying to convince a free agent to sign with Portland. It's going to be trades with other teams. I don't think that Dame needs to do a sales pitch other than to reach out and let the players know that they'll be a great fit for what Portland is building.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

True, but with a couple of caveats.

First, if George doesn't force that trade, OKC doesn't blow up their whole team and rebuild. They remain a top contender. Second, they traded two actual players, IIRC, and one still was more a prospect than a player. Presuming Kawhi and George didn't underachieve like they have, all of the draft picks the Thunder got in the trade were likely to be between 24 and 30, which really isn't prime real estate for star players.

Essentially, that trade would have been George for SGA and probably a 2-3 players that are either filling out the bottom of your starting lineup or coming off the bench, and that's not really a gigantic price to pay for a six-time all-star.

I totally disagree on OKC - I think the Clippers were desperate to add Paul George as Kawhi was demanding they acquire him before he signs. So the Thunder saw a once in a decade trade haul of 4 unprotected picks/unprotected swaps/SGA/etc for an aging injured star on a massive contract. They were not a contender, Dame just bounced them in 5 games of the first round when they were the 6th seed. They had been a contender with Durant for awhile previously - but they knew that ship had sailed.

No all of the draft picks are not likely to be in #24-30 range - infact not a single one of them have been. The Thunder received pick #18 in 2021, pick #12 in 2022, and still owe unprotected picks to the Thunder as late as 2026. The Clippers could be really freaking bad in 2026 - its way to early to say those won't be super valuable picks.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

This isn't a case of trying to convince a free agent to sign with Portland. It's going to be trades with other teams. I don't think that Dame needs to do a sales pitch other than to reach out and let the players know that they'll be a great fit for what Portland is building.

I'd say with Bridges/Embiid/Giannis this might be the case, they have so many years on their deals it doesn't matter much what Dame and the player want. Also 3rd teams would provide full trade value with so many years on their deal, so the Blazers have to send out full market trade value to beat those 3rd teams offers and acquire these players.

However I totally disagree with Jalen Brown and Pascal Siakam. As they are on expiring contracts they can put a ton of pressure on their teams, and to send them to a specific destination. 3rd party teams won't want to give up full value on an expiring deal if there is a flight risk. We literally saw this last summer when Grant was expiring, working out with Dame in Portland, and had a list of ONE team on his trade request to the Pistons. That is exactly the type of pressure Dame can have those players push onto their current teams.

 

[cheesehoff]

I was wondering what the idea was behind the title. I've had a notion to write a similar post, but mine would have been a little different. My question had to do with Dame's comments about bringing in talent, too. My angle is how serious to take his (and a few others stars in the past) demands when they are taking up so much of the salary cap by themselves? Not saying they should play for peanuts. When you're being paid $45m+ a year in salary, plus the millions and millions from endorsements, it's hard to take those demands very seriously because the number one reason teams can't sign fa's is money.

 

[KingSpeed]

True, but with a couple of caveats.

First, if George doesn't force that trade, OKC doesn't blow up their whole team and rebuild. They remain a top contender. Second, they traded two actual players, IIRC, and one still was more a prospect than a player. Presuming Kawhi and George didn't underachieve like they have, all of the draft picks the Thunder got in the trade were likely to be between 24 and 30, which really isn't prime real estate for star players.

Essentially, that trade would have been George for SGA and probably a 2-3 players that are either filling out the bottom of your starting lineup or coming off the bench, and that's not really a gigantic price to pay for a six-time all-star.

OKC wasn’t a top contender so how could they remain one? Also- OKC got the best player in that trade in SGA. What a horrible trade that was for the Clippers.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I was wondering what the idea was behind the title. I've had a notion to write a similar post, but mine would have been a little different. My question had to do with Dame's comments about bringing in talent, too. My angle is how serious to take his (and a few others stars in the past) demands when they are taking up so much of the salary cap by themselves? Not saying they should play for peanuts. When you're being paid $45m+ a year in salary, plus the millions and millions from endorsements, it's hard to take those demands very seriously because the number one reason teams can't sign fa's is money.

What makes you think the Blazers would have used any "savings" from Dame wisely?

Meyers Leonard - 5yrs/$50 million
Crabbe - 4yrs/$78 million
Evan Turner - 4yrs/$70 million

 

[Natebishop3]

What makes you think the Blazers would have used any "savings" from Dame wisely?

Meyers Leonard - 5yrs/$50 million
Crabbe - 4yrs/$78 million
Evan Turner - 4yrs/$70 million

Slypokerdog - lifetime supply of bones

 

[BassPlaya]

As fans, we have a choice of what world to live in. Some say fans are not being "real" when they won't recognize the reality of this teams current make-up, and how that is not going to win a championship. I find that kind of funny. I actually see the reality of this team as franchise that has less trade options because of taxes/location/night life/television exposure....etc, etc. The Blazers greatest opportunity, albeit a small one, is to draft the unicorns. It is my belief that the team is not a trade away from a title. That road, simply weakens the future (90% chance), for a title (10% chance).

These stars are just that...stars. Portland is not a star destination. But I love my team. Right now, I am really enjoying the return to this franchise of good people. They might win another one someday, but they are already winners to me. Regardless, no amount of begging, demanding, criticizing, or any other effort by fans, will alter who we are, where we are, and our chances of a title.

Our best shot, still remains, in drafting special players.

 

[noknobs]

Dame said in the very same quote that he knows players that want to come to Portland. OK, then Dame needs to put his money where his mouth is and get those players to force their way to Portland.

lol, just another day on the Blazer board I see.

 

[PCmor7]

OKC wasn’t a top contender so how could they remain one?

A 49-win team with George, Westbrook and Steven Adams that was 5 wins from being second seed? They certainly were a contender and certainly were a team capable of winning the championship or being in the mix next year if they added a piece instead of having George force a trade and blowing it up. We can parse words and pedantic all we want, it doesn't change the fact that they had a tremendous team nor does it have any impact whatsoever on the OP.

Also- OKC got the best player in that trade in SGA. What a horrible trade that was for the Clippers.

He was coming off his rookie year when he averaged 10.8 ppg. He's the best player now. He was a lottery ticket at the time of the trade.

 

[PCmor7]

lol, just another day on the Blazer board I see.

Don't get stuck on a secondary sentence, please. Read the post if you like and actually understand it's not an indictment of Dame but the point that he can play a more direct role in making his vision a reality.

 

[PCmor7]

No all of the draft picks are not likely to be in #24-30 range - infact not a single one of them have been. The Thunder received pick #18 in 2021, pick #12 in 2022, and still owe unprotected picks to the Thunder as late as 2026. The Clippers could be really freaking bad in 2026 - its way to early to say those won't be super valuable picks.

It's not what they did receive. It's what they were probably going to receive.

When you found out the Clippers had signed Kawhi and traded for Paul George, how did you think there team was going to perform over the next year? The next few years? What was the consensus of the experts?

The odds were the Clippers were going to be in the top five or six in the standings for the next few years. Both stars suddenly became injury casualties since, and that's why the draft picks they gave up were better. From OKC's standpoint, though, that was a longshot bet that worked out for them. No one could foresee that.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

It's not what they did receive. It's what they were probably going to receive.

When you found out the Clippers had signed Kawhi and traded for Paul George, how did you think there team was going to perform over the next year? The next few years? What was the consensus of the experts?

The odds were the Clippers were going to be in the top five or six in the standings for the next few years. Both stars suddenly became injury casualties since, and that's why the draft picks they gave up were better. From OKC's standpoint, though, that was a longshot bet that worked out for them. No one could foresee that.

Well I agree that the 2022 pick wouldn't have expected to be in the lottery and became much more valuable at #12 that the Clippers ultimately gave up so soon. But that is not the sole draft asset - they have unprotected picks out until 2026 when Kawhi and Paul George are both closer to 40 than 30. Both have lost multiple seasons to injuries prior to being Clippers. Those picks are unprotected - I remember it as a consensus of a massive draft pick haul by the Thunder at the time of the trade. Some considered it to be the best haul of draft picks potentially ever seen in the history of NBA trades. So no - your statement that "All of the picks were expected in 24-30" is totally false.

 

[wizenheimer]

I was wondering what the idea was behind the title. I've had a notion to write a similar post, but mine would have been a little different. My question had to do with Dame's comments about bringing in talent, too. My angle is how serious to take his (and a few others stars in the past) demands when they are taking up so much of the salary cap by themselves? Not saying they should play for peanuts. When you're being paid $45m+ a year in salary, plus the millions and millions from endorsements, it's hard to take those demands very seriously because the number one reason teams can't sign fa's is money.

when have the Blazers ever brought in allstar talent using cap-space in the cap-space era? Ever?

* they had near max space in 2009 (limited by the Darius Miles/Memphis alliance); KP tried to sign Hedo Turkoglu, he said no, so they settled on Andre Miller

* they had max space in 2012. Olshey tried to sign Roy Hibbert. Indiana matched so Potland settles on Joel Freeland and Victor Claver

* they had max space in 2015. Olshey tried to sign Greg Monroe but he chose the Bucks. The Olshey made an offer to Enes Kanter to fuck with OKC. They matched so Olshey settled on Ed Davis and Aminu

* they had max space in 2016. Olshey first tried to sign Chandler Parsons but he signed with memphis; then Olshey went after Hassan Whteside but he spurned the Blazers. Then, what Olshey did was waste cap-space on Evan Turner and Festus Ezeli while matching an idiot offer for Allen Crabbe and giving Meyers Leonard 41M.

and you're blaming Dame's salary for the problem...really? In 2016-17, Dame was making 24M. But Crabbe-Turner-Meyers-Ezeli combined for 52M. In 2018-19 when Portland made it to the WCF, Dame was making 28M; but CJ-Turner-Harkless-Leonard+dead salary (Nicholson/Varajao) combined for 70M. In 2020-21, the last time Portland made the playoffs, Dame made 31.6M. Meanwhile, CJ-RoCo-Powell-Jones-Nicholson-Varajao combined for over 65M. which salries were responsible for the bloat and squeeze, Dame's or the others?

looks to me like it was Blazer management wasting space & cap on stupid choices; and players, for whatever reasons, not wanting to live in Portland. Hard to see how that's Dame's fault but he sure seems to be the all-purpose dumping ground for poorly focused blame lately

 

[noknobs]

Don't get stuck on a secondary sentence, please. Read the post if you like and actually understand it's not an indictment of Dame but the point that he can play a more direct role in making his vision a reality.

'Put his money where his mouth is' sounds like a semi-indictment of Dame but that's probably not what you intended. I just think it's ludicrous to assume that anyone involved isn't doing whatever they can. At the end of the day he's not the GM and he's certainly not the other teams GM who needs to want what we can offer. There might be a star or two that wouldn't mind coming to Portland, but that's a far cry from a star putting Portland on a list of one and demanding to be traded from their current team. I'm trying to remember the last star to demand to be traded to a small market that was just in the lottery.

 

[PCmor7]

Well I agree that the 2022 pick wouldn't have expected to be in the lottery and became much more valuable at #12 that the Clippers ultimately gave up so soon. But that is not the sole draft asset - they have unprotected picks out until 2026 when Kawhi and Paul George are both closer to 40 than 30. Both have lost multiple seasons to injuries. Those picks are unprotected - I remember it as a consensus of a massive draft pick haul by the Thunder at the time of the trade. Some considered it to be the best haul of draft picks potentially ever seen in the history of NBA trades. So no - your statement that "All of the picks were expected in 24-30" is totally false.

Fair enough. I think it's nit-picking and just as subjective as mine to say it's "totally false" when your point center around basically one pick -- LA's 2026. Technically, however, you'd be correct and I wrong.

In my defense, though, despite the injuries and their ages, both of those players still averaged 23.8 ppg this season and their winning percentage playing together is 67.6%. That would have been first in the West had they played the entire schedule together. I don't think it's a stretch to think that a first rounder in three years would still have been a pretty late first-round pick.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

when have the Blazers ever brought in allstar talent using cap-space in the cap-space era? Ever?

* they had near max space in 2009 (limited by the Darius Miles/Memphis alliance); KP tried to sign Hedo Turkoglu, he said no, so they settled on Andre Miller

* they had max space in 2012. Olshey tried to sign Roy Hibbert. Indiana matched so Potland settles on Joel Freeland and Victor Claver

* they had max space in 2015. Olshey tried to sign Greg Monroe but he chose the Bucks. The Olshey made an offer to Enes Kanter to fuck with OKC. They matched so Olshey settled on Ed Davis and Aminu

* they had max space in 2016. Olshey first tried to sign Chandler Parsons but he signed with memphis; then Olshey went after Hassan Whteside but he spurned the Blazers. Then, what Olshey did was waste cap-space on Evan Turner and Festus Ezeli while matching an idiot offer for Allen Crabbe and giving Meyers Leonard 41M.

and you're blaming Dame's salary for the problem...really? In 2016-17, Dame was making 24M. But Crabbe-Turner-Meyers-Ezeli combined for 52M. In 2018-19 when Portland made it to the WCF, Dame was making 28M; but CJ-Turner-Harkless-Leonard+dead salary (Nicholson/Varajao) combined for 70M. In 2020-21, the last time Portland made the playoffs, Dame made 31.6M. Meanwhile, CJ-RoCo-Powell-Jones-Nicholson-Varajao combined for over 65M. which salries were responsible for the bloat and squeeze, Dame's or the others?

looks to me like it was Blazer management wasting space & cap on stupid choices; and players, for whatever reasons, not wanting to live in Portland. Hard to see how that's Dame's fault but he sure seems to be the all-purpose dumping ground for poorly focused blame lately

Andre Miller - then for Olshey Ed Davis and Aminu were all great signings.... and thats it. Everything else was shit use of cap space. Maybe you can say getting a 1st round pick for Varajao was decent - although we wasted it on Swanigan. Of course Wes was a great signing too in 2010, but yeah that was the full MLE not cap space.

Yeah just a lot of shit acquisitions with free agency. I remember Spencer Hawes being sent an offer - that might have been an offer for our MLE - but he choose to go play for Donald Sterling instead.

I was critical of Dame/the Blazers not closing the deal with Chandler Parsons at the time. But its pretty crazy in an interview this year his agent told him Portland would void his contract during a physical so he agreed with the Grizzlies instead.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Fair enough. I think it's nit-picking and just as subjective as mine to say it's "totally false" when your point center around basically one pick -- LA's 2026. Technically, however, you'd be correct and I wrong.

In my defense, though, despite the injuries and their ages, both of those players still averaged 23.8 ppg this season and their winning percentage playing together is 67.6%. That would have been first in the West had they played the entire schedule together. I don't think it's a stretch to think that a first rounder in three years would still have been a pretty late first-round pick.

Its not one pick, they still owe additional picks sooner than that 2026 pick and they owe unprotected swaps - its basically 7 years of picks from the trade in 2019 - that goes all the way from 2021 to 2026.

It wasn't a first rounder in 3 years - the trade was done in 2019 and they mortgaged their picks until the 2026 draft - long after Kawhi and Paul George were signed - as well as when they were likely to be top NBA players.

This was just a horrible example of a trade where a star pressured his team to move him now. There was zero pressure put on OKC. OKC had Paul George locked up for years and received one of the biggest trade hauls in NBA history. This was actually the exact opposite - where Kawhi pressured the receiving team to do a trade. The equivalent would be if Dame were a free agent this summer and required the Blazers to trade for player x before he returns.

 

[PCmor7]

'Put his money where his mouth is' sounds like a semi-indictment of Dame but that's probably not what you intended. I just think it's ludicrous to assume that anyone involved isn't doing whatever they can. At the end of the day he's not the GM and he's certainly not the other teams GM who needs to want what we can offer. There might be a star or two that wouldn't mind coming to Portland, but that's a far cry from a star putting Portland on a list of one and demanding to be traded from their current team. I'm trying to remember the last star to demand to be traded to a small market that was just in the lottery.

Fair enough. I think it requires reading into it to see it as coming out as slamming Dame instead of saying Dame needs to do this. Neither of us knows what he is or isn't doing, but to say what he should be doing is fair.

Also, I think context could have been used. Bolding one line from a paragraph without any acknowledgment of the rest of the content makes it easier to look like "it's another guy blasting Dame" rather than an analysis that Dame can influence these guys to force trades, but, if that's how my post came off, it wasn't meant to.

And nothing is stopping any players demanding to go to the Blazers just because of where they're located or where they are. I'm not sure why it would. It's like living in 1968 and saying something can't be done because no one's stepped on the moon. Any player can push for a trade, even those that don't have cache'.

 

[blazerkor]

when have the Blazers ever brought in allstar talent using cap-space in the cap-space era? Ever?

* they had near max space in 2009 (limited by the Darius Miles/Memphis alliance); KP tried to sign Hedo Turkoglu, he said no, so they settled on Andre Miller

* they had max space in 2012. Olshey tried to sign Roy Hibbert. Indiana matched so Potland settles on Joel Freeland and Victor Claver

* they had max space in 2015. Olshey tried to sign Greg Monroe but he chose the Bucks. The Olshey made an offer to Enes Kanter to fuck with OKC. They matched so Olshey settled on Ed Davis and Aminu

* they had max space in 2016. Olshey first tried to sign Chandler Parsons but he signed with memphis; then Olshey went after Hassan Whteside but he spurned the Blazers. Then, what Olshey did was waste cap-space on Evan Turner and Festus Ezeli while matching an idiot offer for Allen Crabbe and giving Meyers Leonard 41M.

and you're blaming Dame's salary for the problem...really? In 2016-17, Dame was making 24M. But Crabbe-Turner-Meyers-Ezeli combined for 52M. In 2018-19 when Portland made it to the WCF, Dame was making 28M; but CJ-Turner-Harkless-Leonard+dead salary (Nicholson/Varajao) combined for 70M. In 2020-21, the last time Portland made the playoffs, Dame made 31.6M. Meanwhile, CJ-RoCo-Powell-Jones-Nicholson-Varajao combined for over 65M. which salries were responsible for the bloat and squeeze, Dame's or the others?

looks to me like it was Blazer management wasting space & cap on stupid choices; and players, for whatever reasons, not wanting to live in Portland. Hard to see how that's Dame's fault but he sure seems to be the all-purpose dumping ground for poorly focused blame lately

Shit!!! When all of those max contract offers that we were lucky enough to not land get put together like that it just reinforces just how fucking terrible Neil was. We all remember the terrible contracts he did give out but the ones he tried to give out were even worse. We'll see what Joe does this off season but I trust his decision making a lot more than fucking Olshey's.

 

[Whyachi]

Travel time. Portland is very isolated. Long road trips are brutal on the psyche. So the GM is grabbing players trying to revitalize their careers with more PT and no pressure to win. Getting a team that's excited to play improves chemistry, and makes those week long excursions across the country a fun environment.

Eubanks, rescued from the G-league.
Knox, getting benched in Detroit has got to stink.
Thybulle, from spot minutes to key player.
Reddish, we believe in you Cam.
Watford, undrafted, grinding out an NBA career.
Winslow, happy to finally contribute.

Fly to Utah, fly back to Portland
Fly to Minnesota, fly back to Portland
Fly to OKC, fly back to Portland

The NW division is totally jacked travel wise since the Sonics and Grizzlies moved. The California teams can battle each other out without ridiculous flight hours. There's nobody right up the road for Portland to play.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Dame doesn't want to play with 19 year olds, and I agree that he shouldn't have to.

Any 18-year olds in the draft?

/end @SlyPokerDog impersonation

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Damn, Lillard has entered the Zion phase of his career.

 

[wizenheimer]

Damn, Lillard has entered the Zion phase of his career.

someone needs to send that to Dame

 

[KingSpeed]

A 49-win team with George, Westbrook and Steven Adams that was 5 wins from being second seed? They certainly were a contender and certainly were a team capable of winning the championship or being in the mix next year if they added a piece instead of having George force a trade and blowing it up. We can parse words and pedantic all we want, it doesn't change the fact that they had a tremendous team nor does it have any impact whatsoever on the OP.



He was coming off his rookie year when he averaged 10.8 ppg. He's the best player now. He was a lottery ticket at the time of the trade.

They were a 6 seed. Only one 6 seed ever has won the championship. We beat them in 5. Were WE a contender? I’ve never heard that.