Convincing a Collins hater: what to look for

I have a friend who has attended several games this year, and watches nearly every game he can't attend--so suffice to say, not a box-score junkie, but an actual fan of the game. He hated the Collins pick at the time and can't stand the fact that he's getting minutes while Swanigan is in the G league.

So he asked the question:

Since I rarely get to actually watch games, I wanted to pose this question to you guys. How would you answer a legitimate query from a Collins hater?

PtldPlatypus said:

I have a friend who has attended several games this year, and watches nearly every game he can't attend--so suffice to say, not a box-score junkie, but an actual fan of the game. He hated the Collins pick at the time and can't stand the fact that he's getting minutes while Swanigan is in the G league.

So he asked the question:

"Seriously--what should I be watching for with Zach Collins? Rather than just hate on him, I want to see what everyone else sees. Best I can see, He's trying...trying...

Genuine question: what is everyone seeing in him that fills then with so much hope in him for the future?"​

Since I rarely get to actually watch games, I wanted to pose this question to you guys. How would you answer a legitimate query from a Collins hater?

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First, why do you get to watch so few games?

And in answer to your question, several things come to mind. Foot speed and agility for one. Caleb looks too heavy up top and had hit the floor several times awkwardly in the few games before he was sent to the G. He can dribble with the ball well in the post and has a killer instinct under the basket to want to get to the rim.
He has way better hops than Caleb. Caleb can barely dunk and his hops will never improve. This leads to many blocked shots and rim stuffs.

Caleb DOES have great court instincts and knows where he should be most of the time it seems ( or he wouldn't be such a good rebounder) ,but Collins also shows that and has what looks to be so far just as decent of an outside shot as Caleb.

Caleb gets most of his numbers and eyelook form hustle. He will lose a step in time.
Collins does have great hustle, but he also shows many fundamental skills that Caleb doesnt have/show, like much better ball handling skills.

You combine that with Caleb being three years more experienced, or to flip it, Collins being three years younger, the upside seems to lean far in the far of Collins having a better long term impact in the NBA.

Tell him to watch a few things:

His positioning on the court.
How he moves in relation to the ball (excellent spacer).
His overall court demeanor (he's a fuckin' killer bro. He has an instinct.)
Tell him to look at that block on Harden and his reaction (like he's been there before and it's no thing)

Then show him this:



Afterward tell him to be patient, use optimism and an objective eye instead of using his feelings.

dviss1 said:

Tell him to watch a few things:

His positioning on the court.
How he moves in relation to the ball (excellent spacer).
His overall court demeanor (he's a fuckin' killer bro. He has an instinct.)
Tell him to look at that block on Harden and his reaction (like he's been there before and it's no thing)

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Some of that actually matches my initial response to him:

PtldPlatypus said:

Some of that actually matches my initial response to him:

Offensively--footwork, assertiveness, decision-making, form.
Defensively--positioning, reaction, rotations.
Overall athleticism, BBIQ.
This is what I generally hear from the zeros.​

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He may or may not see it but he's put on about 3-5 lbs of lean muscle and looks a bit stronger.

He REBOUNDS and sets great screens.

The stats won’t be there for a couple of reasons

1) he usually plays somewhere between 15-20 minutes a night.

2) he doesn’t get plays run for him. Every point he scores is either through effort or a bail out play. Basically, rarely, or ever, by design.

Despite that he still shows reasons to be on the court:

1. He’s smart. It’s noticable when he’s out of position, because it rarely happens.

2. Fundamentally sound. Defensively he already has verticality figured out. He’s also got excellent footwork around the basket, but we rarely see it because, once again, he doesn’t get plays run for him, and also because his role right now is more perimeter oriented. Once his body catches up to his talent and also gains more trust and experience, his post game should take a significant leap.

3. He’s long and athletic. Stotts trusts him on the perimeter. Maybe too much since he’s almost strictly been at power forward. He can shadow most wings. He uses his length to rebound out of his area. One thing I read Zach say recently is that he’s never played on the perimeter as much as he is now, and learning how to rebound from there is a process that he's still going through. Well, the last two games I thought he looked really good on the boards, so he’s coming along nicely.

4. Spaces the court. His shooting percentages have gotten better each month and that improvement should continue as he gets more and more comfortable. It also isn’t an easy thing to shoot with zero rhythm, so it’d be unfair to compare his percentages with someone who gets more consistent looks. The most important thing to me is that he doesn’t hesitate and stays balanced through his shot. I think he does both, so there’s optimism there that he hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.

5. Intangibles. Not afraid of anybody. He gets outmuscled a lot, but he’s not afraid to throw his body around anyway. Everyone in the nba is talented but not everyone has it upstairs. Zach does.

Once Zach's body and role catches up with his skillset, mentality, and athleticism, he’s going to be a big time player. Right now we only have flashes, but the bang is nearrrr.

Orion Bailey said:

You combine that with Caleb being three years more experienced, or to flip it, Collins being three years younger, the upside seems to lean far in the far of Collins having a better long term impact in the NBA.

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Where do you get Swanigan being three years older/three years more experienced? He's seven months older than Collins (both currently 20) with one more year of college experience. A year ago, Swanigan was a young sophomore in college and Collins was an old freshman. That's the extent of the age difference.

BNM

I'm not all that high on him. Need to see more flashes, but he's not a complete disappointment.

He's long, he runs well, has good hands, and a quick release on his jumper (unlike Meyers who takes 4 seconds to wind up and let go). His court awareness on both ends is already better than half our scrubs (Meyers/Jake/disengaged Moe, etc). What i mean by that is that he knows when to shoot, when to pass, and where to be on defense. He also makes the right reads on passes and stays within his lane and doesn't look scared.

Still wish he were further along when I see guys like Kuzma, John Collins, and Mitchell, but the tools are clearly there. I'm dubious about our coaching and its ability to develop big men, but he's alright. I project him as an above average big man when he's ready to go, which is OK for a 10th pick I suppose.

yuyuza1 said:

Still wish he were further along when I see guys like Kuzma, John Collins, and Mitchell, but the tools are clearly there. I'm dubious about our coaching and its ability to develop big men, but he's alright. I project him as an above average big man when he's ready to go, which is OK for a 10th pick I suppose.

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If only there was such a thing as coaches that specialized in developing big men. I'm sure if such coaches existed, Paul Allen and his crack staff of Vulcans would have hired the best money can buy years ago. Such a coach could have helped Meyers Leonard and Noah Vonleh (still could) and could help Caleb Swanigan, Zach Collins and Jusuf Nurkic reach their full potential. Gosh darn it, if only such coaches existed...

BNM

Send your friend a link to this place. Sounds like he would enjoy it.

rotary111 said:

Send your friend a link to this place. Sounds like he would enjoy it.

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He goes to and watches most of the games. That alone is an advantage over some other posters in here.

We literally have people here that don't watch games and then complain about players.

dviss1 said:

He goes to and watches most of the games. That alone is an advantage over some other posters in here.

We literally have people here that don't watch games and then complain about players.

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And we have some people who are refs, so they have impaired court vision when they do get to watch a game. Amirite?! Guys?!

BrianFromWA said:

And we have some people who are refs, so they have impaired court vision when they do get to watch a game. Amirite?! Guys?!

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More like:

dviss1 said:

He goes to and watches most of the games. That alone is an advantage over some other posters in here.

We literally have people here that don't watch games and then complain about players.

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And the coach, and the refs, and the TV announcers...

BNM

And I also feel like the offense flows really (better) well with him on the court.

Boise Blazer said:

And I also feel like the offense flows really (better) well with him on the court.

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He has good ball-handling skills (not dribbling) as has solid hands and can execute the dribble hand off without turning it over.

When he has the ball at the top of the key, he's very aware of where the handoff is going to and how to get it to the dribbler.

PtldPlatypus said:

I have a friend who has attended several games this year, and watches nearly every game he can't attend...Since I rarely get to actually watch games, I wanted to pose this question to you guys. How would you answer a legitimate query from a Collins hater?

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Tell your "friend" that a lot of Collins praise derives from watching Meyers Leonard for 5 1/2 long years.

jlprk said:

Tell your "friend" that a lot of Collins praise derives from watching Meyers Leonard for 5 1/2 long years.

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I think many are just relieved that he's NOT the next Meyers.

Our expectations have been sufficiently lowered:



BNM

Boob-No-More said:

Where do you get Swanigan being three years older/three years more experienced? He's seven months older than Collins (both currently 20) with one more year of college experience. A year ago, Swanigan was a young sophomore in college and Collins was an old freshman. That's the extent of the age difference.

BNM

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My fault. You aRe correct. For some reason I thought Caleb was a senior.

BrianFromWA said:

And we have some people who are refs, so they have impaired court vision when they do get to watch a game. Amirite?! Guys?!

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That was funny, but...

dviss1 said:

More like:

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That was funnier!!!


Hahahahaha

I still stand by everything else I said though and the eye test says there COULD be a three year gap... in Collins fAvor. Lol

Swanigan has further to go physically than Collins lol.

Orion Bailey said:

My fault. You Re correct. For some reason I bought Caleb was a senior.

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Probably because Swanigan was a consensus 1st team All American and Big 10 Player of the Year, while Collins didn't even start.

Totally different circumstances. Collins was a freshman playing behind a 7'1" 305 lb. 23-year old 5th year senior, but even still he was 1st Team All Tournament. He stepped up when it counted. Karnowski was able to physically overpower smaller, younger players, but Collins was much more talented.

BNM

Scalma said:

Swanigan has further to go physically than Collins lol.

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I don't see this...they are not the same type of players but Swanigan has a way stronger lower core than Collins...Collins has a way better vertical than Swanigan....Swanigan though is a better rebounder and shooter than Zach....if Swanigan had the opportunity Collins has been given, I think you'd see he's not that far from NBA ready...

riverman said:

I don't see this...they are not the same type of players but Swanigan has a way stronger lower core than Collins...Collins has a way better vertical than Swanigan....Swanigan though is a better rebounder and shooter than Zach....if Swanigan had the opportunity Collins has been given, I think you'd see he's not that far from NBA ready...

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I’ve seen Swanigan pretty much every game in the gleague. He’s not ready. He struggles to get his shot off against guys that won’t ever see an NBA court. He’s got ways to go.

But back to what I was talking about, Swanigan needs to lose weight before he even starts building his body. Collins already has his base.

Scalma said:

Collins already has his base.

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we disagree....Collins needs lower and upper core strength...Swanigan doesn't need to lose weight...he needs to gain upper body muscle...I haven't watched all his games but have seen his highlights.....he's going to be a beast. Way ahead of the curve in my view....Collins is going to be a beast as well when he adds muscle.

from rookie season to vet

riverman said:

we disagree....Collins needs lower and upper core strength...Swanigan doesn't need to lose weight...he needs to gain upper body muscle...I haven't watched all his games but have seen his highlights.....he's going to be a beast. Way ahead of the curve in my view....Collins is going to be a beast as well when he adds muscle.

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When I said base, I meant he doesn’t have to lose weight. He just needs to build. Swanigan still has weight to lose. He’s not athletic enough to get away with any extra baggage. He needs to get back to the weight he was in the draft process/summer league. It’s clear he’s put on weight since then.

riverman said:

View attachment 18081 View attachment 18082
from rookie season to vet

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What’s your point? That Zach needs to follow what Aldridge did? Because I agree if so.

Scalma said:

What’s your point? That Zach needs to follow what Aldridge did? Because I agree if so.

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my point is rookies who put in the work will get results like LA did.....and he put in the work...I think we'll see the same from the rookies

riverman said:

my point is rookies who put in the work will get results like LA did.....and he put in the work...I think we'll see the same from the rookies

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I agree, I was just saying that Swanigan has more work to do than Collins.