OT Greater Idaho

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twobullz

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Our you guys up in Portland getting inundated with this? Over here it seems to be in the news often and even been on the ballot. I have not interest in it and don't think it ever happens but tired of hearing about it. There is a small vocal minority who are mad because they don't like Governor Brown and want to break off a large portion of Oregon and join Idaho. I know I would have to move if it ever happened.

https://ktvz.com/news/government-po...hear-pitch-to-absorb-three-fourths-of-oregon/
 
Our you guys up in Portland getting inundated with this? Over here it seems to be in the news often and even been on the ballot. I have not interest in it and don't think it ever happens but tired of hearing about it. There is a small vocal minority who are mad because they don't like Governor Brown and want to break off a large portion of Oregon and join Idaho. I know I would have to move if it ever happened.

https://ktvz.com/news/government-po...hear-pitch-to-absorb-three-fourths-of-oregon/

It comes up now and then.

It's dumb.

@MARIS61 loves the idea.
 
I’m in favor of breaking off Multnomah County from the rest of Oregon. “Antifa Free State” has a nice ring to it.
 
This split could be made in every state and country. Urban areas are more liberal than rural ones. But most people live in urban areas, so U.S. post-election maps deceive, covered in red.
 
Portland, Salem and Eugene basically subsidize the rest of the state. Oregon would be cutting expenses if this went through and Idaho would be adding expenses to the books. Does anyone actually think rural Oregon would be better represented by reducing it's available tax pool? If so then cool, go to idaho, and close all your dispensaries while your at it.
 
Portland, Salem and Eugene basically subsidize the rest of the state. Oregon would be cutting expenses if this went through and Idaho would be adding expenses to the books. Does anyone actually think rural Oregon would be better represented by reducing it's available tax pool? If so then cool, go to idaho, and close all your dispensaries while your at it.

Without hospitals, they wouldn't have to put up with Obamacare. They could do surgery with red-hot pokers around the old campfire.
 
They wouldn't worry about made-in-America pickup trucks anymore. The horses would be born right here in Greater Idaho. But the white ventilated half-plastic cowboy hats would still ship in from China.
 
Yeah who knows where we'd without their awesome leadership.

Or the money. Much of the infrastructure in rural areas is paid for by urban areas. But you don't need liberal infrastructure, just like you don't need liberal leadership. Your grandfather's grandfather didn't need cars or roads or electrical grids.
 
Dirty liberal money is weighting down the good god-fearing 'mericans. The sooner the red states and red counties throw off this fiscal yoke of oppression, the sooner they'll be free.

barfo
 
Our you guys up in Portland getting inundated with this? Over here it seems to be in the news often and even been on the ballot. I have not interest in it and don't think it ever happens but tired of hearing about it. There is a small vocal minority who are mad because they don't like Governor Brown and want to break off a large portion of Oregon and join Idaho. I know I would have to move if it ever happened.

https://ktvz.com/news/government-po...hear-pitch-to-absorb-three-fourths-of-oregon/
I've only seen it in here and we're getting inundated with it in here.
Anyhow, will never happen in here. The moneyed part of the state will not let the poorer part of the state go. The poorer part is already being supported by Western Oregon and they'd be going to another poor area and losing all that support. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
 
Or the money. Much of the infrastructure in rural areas is paid for by urban areas. But you don't need liberal infrastructure, just like you don't need liberal leadership. Your grandfather's grandfather didn't need cars or roads or electrical grids.
Or flush toilets.
 
Without hospitals, they wouldn't have to put up with Obamacare. They could do surgery with red-hot pokers around the old campfire.
 
Without hospitals, they wouldn't have to put up with Obamacare. They could do surgery with red-hot pokers around the old campfire.
LOL
 
This split could be made in every state and country. Urban areas are more liberal than rural ones. But most people live in urban areas, so U.S. post-election maps deceive, covered in red.
Urban areas of the U.S. supply about 70% of the revenue. If the rural areas broke away the urban areas could really grow. Of course the rural areas would have to close most of their hospitals and get their light at night from candles and whale oil. Life might be tough going to an outhouse late at night in the snow. You'd have to get mules to plow the earth. And who needs electricity and gas buggies. Horse and carriage.
 
It comes up now and then.

It's dumb.

@MARIS61 loves the idea.
Of course he does. He uses an outhouse for certain needs and a fireplace for heat and cooking. Doesn't he ride back and forth to the General Store on a mule?
 
Man, it gets thick around here at times. Urban and rural areas need each other. The idea that urban areas are doing some great service to rural areas out of some sense of altruism is condescending bullshit. Most of the money spent is for roads that get used primarily by urban dwellers heading out to enjoy the great outdoors. I have a mental image of the chaos at the local Freddy's grocery section as people break out their knives and guns scrambling for the last can of beans on the vacant shelves. The electrical power that we're so addicted to gets generated in rural areas. The fuel to run our cars and resources to build everything we manufacture are extracted from rural areas.
 
Man, it gets thick around here at times. Urban and rural areas need each other. The idea that urban areas are doing some great service to rural areas out of some sense of altruism is condescending bullshit. Most of the money spent is for roads that get used primarily by urban dwellers heading out to enjoy the great outdoors.

I wasn't talking about roads linking cities with rural areas. The actual roads in small cities and towns in rural areas are generally funded by tax-payers in urban areas because rural areas can't afford all the infrastructure with just their own tax base.

And you may consider it "condescending bullshit," but I think it's a very important thing to note when conservatives in rural areas rail against urban liberals and how they have all the political power (despite the fact that the US political system disproportionately enfranchises rural voters) and often, hilariously, rail against social welfare, when rural areas are huge benefactors of social welfare in exactly this way. ABM seems like a major opponent of social welfare, but one of the largest social welfare projects in this nation was the Tennessee Valley Authority, which helped build up Tennessee into the state he's so proud of.

I have a mental image of the chaos at the local Freddy's grocery section as people break out their knives and guns scrambling for the last can of beans on the vacant shelves. The electrical power that we're so addicted to gets generated in rural areas. The fuel to run our cars and resources to build everything we manufacture are extracted from rural areas.

That's great, but that food and fuel isn't donated free of charge to urban areas. It's bought and paid for. So your implied claim that this balances the money that's invested into rural areas' infrastructure really doesn't hold water.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong or humiliating or condescending about being the benefactors of social welfare. I consider it the moral thing to do for people who need it in a society where we value everyone. But that's my liberal perspective. Conservatives have a huge problem with the idea of social welfare, but champion the rural areas as "real America" and the urban areas as crime-filled scum buckets filled with poor people who drain our taxes with their needs for social welfare.
 
I wasn't talking about roads linking cities with rural areas. The actual roads in small cities and towns in rural areas are generally funded by tax-payers in urban areas because rural areas can't afford all the infrastructure with just their own tax base.

And you may consider it "condescending bullshit," but I think it's a very important thing to note when conservatives in rural areas rail against urban liberals and how they have all the political power (despite the fact that the US political system disproportionately enfranchises rural voters) and often, hilariously, rail against social welfare, when rural areas are huge benefactors of social welfare in exactly this way. ABM seems like a major opponent of social welfare, but one of the largest social welfare projects in this nation was the Tennessee Valley Authority, which helped build up Tennessee into the state he's so proud of.



That's great, but that food and fuel isn't donated free of charge to urban areas. It's bought and paid for. So your implied claim that this balances the money that's invested into rural areas' infrastructure really doesn't hold water.

I personally don't think there's anything wrong or humiliating or condescending about being the benefactors of social welfare. I consider it the moral thing to do for people who need it in a society where we value everyone. But that's my liberal perspective. Conservatives have a huge problem with the idea of social welfare, but champion the rural areas as "real America" and the urban areas as crime-filled scum buckets filled with poor people who drain our taxes with their needs for social welfare.

Apparently, you missed my main point which is that urban and rural Americans NEED EACH OTHER. I didn't make any point about political largesse because I don't disagree with you on that. What I do have a problem with is the view that urban interests should dominate political discourse and have greater power simply because there are more people living in cities. Conversations about "fly-over states" and discussions that paint people who live in rural areas as stupid hicks are as stereotypical and wrong-minded as racial stereotypes. Increasingly, it seems that rural voices are interpreted as being Republican and urban voices are Democrat. That's largely because the parties work to feed the interests of "their constituencies" often to the detriment of other people who don't live in their areas. The conversations about rural areas breaking away from the more urban areas of Oregon and California don't happen in a vacuum. They result when people feel like they're not being heard and that people who don't give a crap about their issues adopt laws and administrative rules that have major economic impacts on farmers, ranchers and others who don't live in the cities. We're headed for an increasingly divided America unless our policy makers stop with all of the petty posturing and start listening to other people. I don't have a lot of hope about that happening.
 
Apparently, you missed my main point which is that urban and rural Americans NEED EACH OTHER.

I didn't miss that at all. To wit: "I personally don't think there's anything wrong or humiliating or condescending about being the benefactors of social welfare. I consider it the moral thing to do for people who need it in a society where we value everyone."

I recognize that everyone's needed. You're currently talking about people in rural communities that mine or farm, but it can easily be applied to people at the bottom of the economic food chain in urban areas, the people working two or three below-living-wage jobs. That was my point there.

What I do have a problem with is the view that urban interests should dominate political discourse and have greater power simply because there are more people living in cities.

Why shouldn't they have greater power when they have more people? To take this to extremes, do you think a town of 10 people should have equal power and representation to a city with 10 million people? To believe this, you'd have to believe that each person in that 10 person town is 10 million times more important than each person in the city.

And, if you do believe that, you're in luck--our terrible electoral system largely agrees with you and apportions power by land mass, not people. This isn't a democracy representative of people, it's a democracy representative of acreage.

I think you've gone too far over your skis on this point. You're absolutely correct when you say both rural communities and urban communities need each other--you immediately lose the plot when you outright state that it's an injustice that communities of more people have greater representation than communities of less people. That's exactly how a representative democracy is supposed to work. We need protections for minority communities, whether those are racial minorities or minorities like rural communities, but otherwise majorities do get greater power to determine policy. If that's unjust to you, representative democracy is not for you.

We're headed for an increasingly divided America

We're not headed there, we've been there for at least 20 years, probably longer.
 
I didn't miss that at all. To wit: "I personally don't think there's anything wrong or humiliating or condescending about being the benefactors of social welfare. I consider it the moral thing to do for people who need it in a society where we value everyone."

I recognize that everyone's needed. You're currently talking about people in rural communities that mine or farm, but it can easily be applied to people at the bottom of the economic food chain in urban areas, the people working two or three below-living-wage jobs. That was my point there.



Why shouldn't they have greater power when they have more people? To take this to extremes, do you think a town of 10 people should have equal power and representation to a city with 10 million people? To believe this, you'd have to believe that each person in that 10 person town is 10 million times more important than each person in the city.

And, if you do believe that, you're in luck--our terrible electoral system largely agrees with you and apportions power by land mass, not people. This isn't a democracy representative of people, it's a democracy representative of acreage.

I think you've gone too far over your skis on this point. You're absolutely correct when you say both rural communities and urban communities need each other--you immediately lose the plot when you outright state that it's an injustice that communities of more people have greater representation than communities of less people. That's exactly how a representative democracy is supposed to work. We need protections for minority communities, whether those are racial minorities or minorities like rural communities, but otherwise majorities do get greater power to determine policy. If that's unjust to you, representative democracy is not for you.



We're not headed there, we've been there for at least 20 years, probably longer.

Well, we're probably never going to agree on the issue of how a representative government should work with respect to distribution of power. I think that the founders got it about as close to "right" as is feasible in deciding to split the baby in dividing power between a population-based House and a states-rights-based Senate. This country is not now, and has never been, a representative democracy. It's a federal republic with a deliberate constitutional division between popular vote and states vote. That's not likely to ever change. What needs to change is that political parties should start working on platforms that are as inclusive as possible instead of their current path of being as divisive as possible.
 
Apparently, you missed my main point which is that urban and rural Americans NEED EACH OTHER.

It's also true that the US and China need each other. So we have to get along to some extent. Doesn't mean we don't try to screw each other over at every opportunity.

We have different interests, and that's ok. If the tension gets too great, we can always have a war to settle things down.

barfo
 
What needs to change is that political parties should start working on platforms that are as inclusive as possible instead of their current path of being as divisive as possible.

That's not likely to ever change either, because the incentives are built in not to do that. The way the founders established the political system has led to a growing and inevitable divide between certain constituencies and builds in too many "safe" political posts (House seats in bright red or blue districts, for example). The incentives all point towards exciting your base as much as possible, driving up the voter engagement of "your team" and simply making gestures at bipartisanship to appear broadly acceptable. Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama played that game the best, IMO.
 

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