Notice Joe Cronin New GM

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by THE HCP, May 10, 2022.

  1. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    7,831
    Likes Received:
    8,013
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah, you've already said that the pick dropping all the way back to the Bucks 2025 first makes it a trade that didn't yield as much as you wanted. I think all of us are on the same page that we would have liked to have seen better contengencies but we don't know if Joe was so sure that the pick this year would convey that he didn't push too hard for better contengencies or he got out negotiated by a more tenured GM who wasn't under the same constraints.

    Any way you cut it, that trade went from being acceptable to bad but we don't know if the demands put on Cronin by ownership left him with any other option. I'm glad to finally move on from the Dame/CJ era and wish we had someone else piloting this supposedly quick rebuild to a contender around Dame but we have Cronin. So now I'm hoping that he has a lot more to him than what we've seen when he has less parameters hindering him and the clout of a GM with a four year deal as opposed to an interim GM who is in the application process for the actual job. Let's wait and see and hope we somehow end up landing two forwards that are the best forward tandem that we've given Dame.
     
  2. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    13,629
    Likes Received:
    21,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    so if the trade worked out and the Pels didn't have the 8th pick to trade any more they should just invent one?

    I've said before I wish Cronin would have added the insurance of the Laker's pick. But at the time, but at the time that was the 14th pick and that would have been a real long shot ask, especially considerig it was betting against Lebron. Pretty sure I said back in Feb. I'd have preferred the Lakers 2024 pick, with reasonable protections over this years pick as that would have seemed more likely to convey

    of course I don't know what Cronin asked for and/or what the Pels refused
     
  3. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    13,629
    Likes Received:
    21,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    On one hand you're saying 2+2=4; on the other you're saying 4-2=0

    how do you like that one?
     
  4. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    9,510
    Likes Received:
    798
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    It was outstanding to get picks to take him and THEN get picks to trade him.

    Talk about buying low and selling high (albeit not as high as maybe he could have sold). I would love Cronin to stumble into deals like those...
     
    BonesJones and hoopsjock like this.
  5. hoopsjock

    hoopsjock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    15,784
    Likes Received:
    25,545
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Business Owner
    Location:
    North Plains
    In this particular instance with this particular trade partner YES, 100% knowing that they just happened to possibly have a 2nd lottery pick. Again, for the tenth time PLEASE READ THIS: I NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD GUARANTEE THE 8TH PICK, JUST COVER POSSIBLE OUTCOMES WHERE THE PELICANS IN THIS ONE AND ONLY CASE GOT THE 8TH PICK FROM THE LAKERS INSTEAD OF US. If we got unlucky with both, nothing Cronin can do about that and I'd give him a pass since he exhausted all options to try and maximize the value before it fell to a future pick.
     
    SlyPokerCat, Fairly-Hard and TBpup like this.
  6. hoopsjock

    hoopsjock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    15,784
    Likes Received:
    25,545
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Business Owner
    Location:
    North Plains
    We don't do that here, we're the team that buys high and then gives them away for free.
     
    oldmangrouch, BonesJones and Ed O like this.
  7. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    13,629
    Likes Received:
    21,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    and you know he didn't ask for another pick but the Pels refused?
     
    Tince likes this.
  8. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    43,442
    Likes Received:
    37,084
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Just invent one? Huh?

    If it was a longshot that that's even more of a knock against Cronin for not covering his bases. If you can mitigate your risk more at no extra expense, it being a "longhsot" is not an excuse.

    New Orleans was willing to give up the 8th pick at the time without knowing if it worked out. There's no logical way a good negotiator wouldn't have been able to say "If this trade works for you and we lose your pick because of it, we want the Lakers pick in the longshot it falls between 5-10 to replace your pick"... They were already willing to give up a pick between 5-10, so an unlikely scenario where they still had a pick between 5 and 10 AND made the playoffs should've been negotiated in.

    I think Cronin just assumed they wouldn't have the Lakers pick instead of choosing to mitigate his risk at no extra cost to himself, which is pure incompetence from a managing standpoint.
     
    hoopsjock likes this.
  9. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

    Joined:
    May 7, 2015
    Messages:
    43,442
    Likes Received:
    37,084
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    You don't even know who you're misinterpreting apparently haha. That wasn't my quote.
     
    SlyPokerCat likes this.
  10. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    7,831
    Likes Received:
    8,013
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't think anyone is saying that they know one way or another but the fact that Cronin couldn't put his foot down and say, "If you get better from this deal to the point the pick doesn't convey we're going to need something at least as good as this pick." and be believed by Griffin or walk away from the deal, doesn't bode well for future negotiations. In what world does it make sense that the Pels did better and got playoff experience, so we got less? I don't know why this is still being discussed though because you didn't like the deal. You liked it with the pick conveying but even then weren't jumping for joy for it and have said that you think it was a bad deal for us with the Bucks 2025 first instead of a late lotto pick now.

    I think you're just saying that we can't just call Cronin a bad negotiator because we have no clue what happened during the negotiations or exactly what the environment was that the negotiations took place in. While you're right that none of us know for sure how everything came together or what Cronin's marching orders were, we never really do and we all still critique trades. So, to me and from what you've admitted before, this was a mediocre trade that went bad. But hey, it got the guy the job and if that's because it was exactly what the Vulcans wanted or because they don't give a fuck, at least Cronin has the job. That's definitely a win for him, it's just questionable if it's a win for us as Trail Blazers fans.
     
    hoopsjock likes this.
  11. blazerfan11

    blazerfan11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    2,493
    Likes Received:
    2,097
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Can you give an example of a trade where, if protected pick #1 didn't convey, that the receiving team then would be owed another protected pick from the same draft class (if it was outside the protection)?
    Has there ever occurred the conditions that you expected from Cronin?
     
  12. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    7,831
    Likes Received:
    8,013
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's so hard to go back and check but I'm pretty sure there have been conditions like those. The best of whatever pick a team has on draft day but top 3 protected. It's very hard to go back and find conditions for picks that have already been conveyed, so you're not going to get a link from me but yeah, I'm pretty damn sure I've seen it. It wouldn't have been an outlandish request from Cronin at all and I really hope he requested it at the very least. It also wouldn't have been at all unheard of for the pick to roll through the 5 picks between now and the Buck's 2025 with top 4 protections. That shit happens all of the time.
     
  13. blazerfan11

    blazerfan11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    2,493
    Likes Received:
    2,097
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Can you give an example of that kind of protection in a trade that has happened in the past?
    Why didn't Memphis get some protection on their 2022 first-round Lakers pick from New Orleans? An 11-20 pick in the 2022 draft could have been very valuable to them. They ended up with two 2nd round picks instead, one of them in 2025.
     
  14. blazerfan11

    blazerfan11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2019
    Messages:
    2,493
    Likes Received:
    2,097
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why didn't the Grizzlies GM get some kind of protection on the Lakers pick from New Orleans? They don't even get a future first-round pick. All they get now is a 2022 second round pick and a 2025 second round pick.
     
  15. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    7,831
    Likes Received:
    8,013
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's a great question but that trade didn't have the disparity of talent going to the Pels that ours did. Also just because one bad trade was made doesn't excuse our bad trade. If anything you're establishing a pattern that Griffin gets over on other GMs in this way and we should have been ready for that.

    It is a different situation though because the Pelicans getting better from their trade with the Grizz couldn't result in the Grizz getting less but that's what happened to us... we created a situation where if the trade made the Grizz better by enough we would get less because of it.
     
  16. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    13,629
    Likes Received:
    21,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was replying directly to you about what you said directly to me...there was no misinterpretaion
     
  17. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    13,629
    Likes Received:
    21,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    in other words, you are accusing Cronin of incompetence because you are assuming he assumed there was no need to mitigate his risk by asking for the Laker's pick. But you don't know any of that to be true

    let me suggest an alternative possibility: Cronin asked for the better of the Pels' or Lakers' 2022 picks, New Orleans responded by giving him the choice of either the Laker 2022 (if it was 5-10) or the Milwaukee 2025 (top-4 protected), but not both, and he made a bet that there was a better chance the Milwaukee pick would convey. I ask, is that a reasonable possibility? Is that scenario more reasonable than the assumption than Cronin is an incompetent idiot?

    and if those were the conditions New Orleans set, and the bet Cronin made on Feb. 8 when the Lakers were only a half game out of 8th seed, and AD had returned to the lineup about 10 days earlier, and the Lakers were 14th in the lottery standings, and their pick wouldn't convey unless they dropped all the way into the top-10, and the Pels were almost certainly insisting on top-4 protections for either 1st...well then would betting on the Buck's pick instead of he Laker pick really been that bad of a bet?
     
    RR7 and Phatguysrule like this.
  18. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    7,831
    Likes Received:
    8,013
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My only problem in the scenario is that Griffin is dictating all of the terms. At that point we were already out of the luxury tax and the Pels were getting the best player in the trade. Again if I'm Cronin I would be harping on the fact that they were gaming out a scenario in which the trade worked out better for the Pels and when the Bucks 2025 pick was mentioned, that would have to be shut down because the Pels had potentially 5 picks between the one they were offering with protection and the that Bucks 2025 pick. I guess if Cronin had seeded complete control of the negotiations that your possibility is reasonable but only if Cronin had allowed himself to be backed into a corner in which another GM felt comfortable giving him that sort of ultimatum.

    I really hope that isn't how it went down because in your hypothetical situation Cronin is getting treated like shit and taking it.
     
    hoopsjock likes this.
  19. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    13,629
    Likes Received:
    21,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    you do understand where that leads, right? ----> Portland holds on to CJ till he retires

    this discussion has run it's course I think because there just doesn't seem to be any way you'll accept the possibility that CJ wasn't worth significantly more than Portland traded him for
     
    RR7 and Phatguysrule like this.
  20. blazerkor

    blazerkor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2014
    Messages:
    7,831
    Likes Received:
    8,013
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't think it was significantly more than what Portland thought they traded him for... just slightly more than that. I do however believe that he was worth significantly more than Portland ended up with for him.
     

Share This Page