WTF is going on with Harkless

Is this a textbook case of a guy getting paid and completely stagnating in his development?

Getting absolutely nothing from him, and he's not even that engaged defensively. Hurd on the broadcast mentioned how Dame has been trying to look for him on offense apparently in an effort to keep him in the game. But I don't see it manifesting anywhere. He's always been inconsistent and appears apathetic, yet this is bad even for him.

Averaging just 7 pts, 4 rebs in 28 mins and his shot from everywhere is trash.

We need a replacement soon-- playing CJ at SF is not the solution.

Maybe he wanted to go to New York and is phoning it in.

Or maybe he's just not that good.

I was a big fan of Harkless last season. This season, I've been pretty disappointed - I expected a lot more from him. I thought his floor would be Wilson Chandler - I still think that's his floor, but for whatever reason he's just dogging it. I wonder if the prolonged uncertainty of being dangled for Melo messed with his head? Whatever the case, there's no excusing it.

But honestly, it's another minor reason I want a new coach. I don't necessarily blame Stotts for Harkless' ineffectiveness, but I'd be interested in what a new coach might be able to do with him (and the rest of the team!).

I thought his best comp was Trevor Ariza, a versatile defender who was money from the corners.

Harkless doesn't even shoot anymore.

He’s not a shooter or scorer. He’s a garbage/scrapping kind of guy. Defender/hustle kind of guy. What is he, the 4th option out there? He’s doing about whats expected in my eyes. Curious around the league, what the 4th option on teams number’s look like.

He's just not a good offensive player and is losing confidence from bricking from everywhere. The guy knows his role. He's not Damian or Cj; he can't hoist shot after shot to break a slump. If the shot isn't going in, he stops shooting. His defense has been excellent, and he was a game high +13 last night. Hopefully the Blazers can continue to manufacture some easy offense for him and get his confidence up. His start to the year has been poor on the offensive side, but it's been that way for a number of our players. Hopefully they can all get things figured out.

blue9 said:

I was a big fan of Harkless last season. This season, I've been pretty disappointed - I expected a lot more from him. I thought his floor would be Wilson Chandler - I still think that's his floor, but for whatever reason he's just dogging it. I wonder if the prolonged uncertainty of being dangled for Melo messed with his head? Whatever the case, there's no excusing it.

But honestly, it's another minor reason I want a new coach. I don't necessarily blame Stotts for Harkless' ineffectiveness, but I'd be interested in what a new coach might be able to do with him (and the rest of the team!).

Click to expand...

So you wan't to change coaches because one player is playing below your expectations?
There is a MELTDOWN thread that could use you.

HCP said:

He’s not a shooter or scorer. He’s a garbage/scrapping kind of guy. Defender/hustle kind of guy. What is he, the 4th option out there? He’s doing about whats expected in my eyes. Curious around the league, what the 4th option on teams number’s look like.

Click to expand...

Last night the fourth option was Napier. Harkless was pretty much the glue guy and 5th option for that 3 guard unit. It seemed to work well and Harkless did get a couple looks on loose ball/put back type plays.

Chief is the defensive captain of the team and Harkless plays better next to him....I think Chief gives him vocal direction on D but Mo isn't really involved in our offensive schemes....just wish he'd finish at the rim better in traffic...so far, he's a dunker if he scores

HCP said:

He’s not a shooter or scorer. He’s a garbage/scrapping kind of guy. Defender/hustle kind of guy. What is he, the 4th option out there? He’s doing about whats expected in my eyes. Curious around the league, what the 4th option on teams number’s look like.

Click to expand...

Here are the top 10 teams in the league by Net Rating. Picked the 4th highest scorer on each team.

GS- enough said

Bos- Tatum: 14/6/2
Hou- Capela: 13/12/1/2
Tor- Valanciunas: 12/7
Det- Drummond: 14/16/1
OKC- Adams: 12/8/1/2/1
Was- Oubre: 11/6/1/1
Mem- Brooks: 9/4 as a rookie second round pick
Sas- Gasol: 11/8/4/1
Lac- Gallo: 13/5/3

Harkless is worse than all these guys. He's not our 4th guy. He's maybe our 7th or 8th guy. He's not even a threat anymore so teams are just sagging off him like they do Noah. We go 3 on 5 on offense when they're on the floor together. If you want a look at why our offense looks so clunky this year, look no further than our offensively inept forwards. In the current NBA, you can maybe afford ONE negative on offense, can't take two.

kjironman1 said:

Last night the fourth option was Napier. Harkless was pretty much the glue guy and 5th option for that 3 guard unit. It seemed to work well and Harkless did get a couple looks on loose ball/put back type plays.

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And THAT is exactly his game. Junk yard dog style. You will never run the offense thru him for sure. He’s just fine. We are seeing what his game really is. Quality role player. Every team needs that guy.

kjironman1 said:

So you wan't to change coaches because one player is playing below your expectations?
There is a MELTDOWN thread that could use you.

Click to expand...

Yeah, THAT'S what I said. My SOLE reason for wanting to change coaches is because Harkless is playing below my expectations. Yup.

HCP said:

He’s not a shooter or scorer. He’s a garbage/scrapping kind of guy. Defender/hustle kind of guy. What is he, the 4th option out there? He’s doing about whats expected in my eyes. Curious around the league, what the 4th option on teams number’s look like.

Click to expand...

Cool dude. Garbage player!

HCP said:

And THAT is exactly his game. Junk yard dog style. You will never run the offense thru him for sure. He’s just fine. We are seeing what his game really is. Quality role player. Every team needs that guy.

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I agree every team needs role players, and that Harkless can be that type of role player. But Harkless could be used more effectively - or play more effectively than he has this season. He's great at cutting without the ball. I don't think that should be a staple of the offense by any means, but it should be integrated into the offense so that it's more of an option than it currently is. If you combine a screen for Harkless to run off of into what is primarily a play for Dame/CJ/Nurk, it would give us a second option if the defense squeezes the first option. But our sets only have one option, with the secondary option being a kick-out to the 3-point line. It's basic as fuck.

Anyway, I also agree with whoever mentioned the Harkless/Vonleh pairing - their combined limitations magnify each others individual limitations. If we had either a SF or a PF that was more of a consistent offensive force then the other would be just fine. As it is, we suffer on the offensive end (though I still like Hark/Vonleh on the defensive end).

blue9 said:

Yeah, THAT'S what I said. My SOLE reason for wanting to change coaches is because Harkless is playing below my expectations. Yup.

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Maybe multiple players are playing below your expectations? Or could it be the top 3 league wide defensive rating? Or could it be the multiple different lineup looks he has used over the vast 14 game stretch? Maybe it could be their League leading rebounding status? Maybe it could be that the players all seem to think he is the best coach they have ever played for?
Please enlighten me as to what it could be?

yuyuza1 said:

Is this a textbook case of a guy getting paid and completely stagnating in his development?

Getting absolutely nothing from him, and he's not even that engaged defensively. Hurd on the broadcast mentioned how Dame has been trying to look for him on offense apparently in an effort to keep him in the game. But I don't see it manifesting anywhere. He's always been inconsistent and appears apathetic, yet this is bad even for him.

Averaging just 7 pts, 4 rebs in 28 mins and his shot from everywhere is trash.

We need a replacement soon-- playing CJ at SF is not the solution.

Click to expand...

I think it's the same situation as with Vonleh that we need to bring him of the bench for him to be more effective. I would start Turner at the 3 anyway, I think he's more suitable for the starting lineup

We need 2 way player at SF position and some one that can shoot the 3 and be able take there man off the dribble right now we don't have that player. Maybe through the draft and again I would bring in and least look at the young man that the Knicks just waive. If he fit mold sign him if not say thank you move on.

kjironman1 said:

Maybe multiple players are playing below your expectations? Or could it be the top 3 league wide defensive rating? Or could it be the multiple different lineup looks he has used over the vast 14 game stretch? Maybe it could be their League leading rebounding status? Maybe it could be that the players all seem to think he is the best coach they have ever played for?
Please enlighten me as to what it could be?

Click to expand...

If you're that curious then do a search of my posts and read them.

Trackjack said:

We need 2 way player at SF position and some one that can shoot the 3 and be able take there man off the dribble right now we don't have that player. Maybe through the draft and again I would bring in and least look at the young man that the Knicks just waive. If he fit mold sign him if not say thank you move on.

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Barely anyone has that player - and the few teams that do certainly aren't going to trade them. SF is currently the shallowest position in the NBA (or maybe it's SG, I can't remember - but good wings are rare).

I like Harkless a lot, and had hight hopes for his future, but I'm starting to wish Layman could get some burn. Harkless does some good stuff on the court, but not enough if this team's goals involve multiple rounds of the playoffs.

Mo Hawkless, mo problems! He and Vonleh are Passive Sr. and Passive Jr.

It makes me appreciate Aminu and Davis. I hope it's not rubbing off onto Nurkic and Biggy Smalls or whoever that rookie is.

Yep he needs to be the 5th option with the 2nd unit. Forcing the ball into him for a post up is not working. Not saying don't pass to him when he is wide open, just don't force the pass when he is covered. or worse when he will have to dribble. Harkless setting up Swanigan to start the game was painful.

He does play well when we go to small ball, as does Aminu. (at PF) But neither have the handles to play SF.
The starting SF spot needs an upgrade. CJ and Dame know it and is why they were pushing so hard for a trade.

yuyuza1 said:

Here are the top 10 teams in the league by Net Rating. Picked the 4th highest scorer on each team.

GS- enough said

Bos- Tatum: 14/6/2
Hou- Capela: 13/12/1/2
Tor- Valanciunas: 12/7
Det- Drummond: 14/16/1
OKC- Adams: 12/8/1/2/1
Was- Oubre: 11/6/1/1
Mem- Brooks: 9/4 as a rookie second round pick
Sas- Gasol: 11/8/4/1
Lac- Gallo: 13/5/3

Harkless is worse than all these guys. He's not our 4th guy. He's maybe our 7th or 8th guy. He's not even a threat anymore so teams are just sagging off him like they do Noah. We go 3 on 5 on offense when they're on the floor together. If you want a look at why our offense looks so clunky this year, look no further than our offensively inept forwards. In the current NBA, you can maybe afford ONE negative on offense, can't take two.

Click to expand...

When you picked the 4th guy did you pick the 4th starter? Usually the top bench guy is a bigger scorer than the 4th starter...

blue9 said:

If you're that curious then do a search of my posts and read them.

Click to expand...

Nah. Just pulling your chain. I know where you stand. Can't say i disagree with you on everything but Stotts is doing well this year IMO. He has more to work with, and is using the assets he has. He screwed the pooch on the Brooklyn game. But he seems to have done well in the last two games.

Send Mo Harkless to New York for Courtney Lee.

BigGameDamian said:

Send Mo Harkless to New York for Courtney Lee.

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I'd be fine with that, but we'd need to get some salary relief too. Either Meyers or Turner would need to be in the trade.

kjironman1 said:

Nah. Just pulling your chain. I know where you stand. Can't say i disagree with you on everything but Stotts is doing well this year IMO. He has more to work with, and is using the assets he has. He screwed the pooch on the Brooklyn game. But he seems to have done well in the last two games.

Click to expand...

I like what I've seen defensively. I don't think we'll remain Top 5 in any category throughout the season, but I'll be moderately happy with Top 15.
I've always thought he's hugely overrated offensively. He is, IMO, the offensive yin to Nate McMillan's defensive yang.

Mo is the biggest disappointment on the team for me so far this season. Last year it was Ed Davis. Glad to see Ed having a bounce back year in the final year of his contract.

It's not like I had unrealistic expectations for Mo. I just expected about the same production as last year (~10 ppg and ~.351 3FG%). He's playing the same minutes this year but his production is way down. It's not just his scoring. His offensive rebounding and steals are both way down. He is just way too passive.

He most definitely is not a junkyard dog type player. He's just the opposite. Those guys bring the energy, go hard after every loose ball, crash the offensive glass and are very opportunistic scorers. That is definitely not Mo Harkless, especially not this year. The effort, as well as the results, are lacking.

I wasn't really expecting much, if any, improvement. I've never thought Mo had much in the way of untapped potential. Any improvement he's shown during his first five years in the league has always been marginal, but I certainly didn't expect this level of regression from a guy that is only 24 years old and healthy.

When Aminu comes back, I hope Stotts plays him more at the 3 next to Vonleh at the 4. If we're going to play 3 on 5 on offense, we might as well have our two best defenders be the two non-threats offensively. Chief is a better defender, a better rebounder and a better 3-point shooter. Plus, he brings the energy Mo lacks.

Chief may not always play smart, but at least he always plays hard. And even though the sample size is only 8 games, Chief's decision making has been much better this year. He seems to be playing within his limitations and not trying to do too much. His shot selection has been excellent and he's cut way down on the unforced TOVs. Bad Chieef is better than Mo. Good Chief, no contest.

BNM

Yeah, junkyard dog he is not.

Orion Bailey said:

Yeah, junkyard dog he is not.

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Remove the junkyard part.

BNM