CJ taking it to another level

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by fumanchu, May 4, 2019.

  1. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Then you didn't bother reading what I actually wrote to start with, that CJ has value in the team dynamic that cannot be measured adequately by metrics, that he has skills that are rare and benefit the team just through their existence, and that his occasionally taking what we would consider "bad shots" as an acceptable trade-off for the great shots he creates and the tough shots he makes. That literally was how I entered this thread. It was when you started to get into CJ didn't really play all that well because he doesn't have the ability to morph from scorer mode to passer mode on a dime that we veered down a parallel course ... that being your perception of what is acceptable to what actually gets the team toward its intended goal.
     
  2. kjironman1

    kjironman1 Well-Known Member

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    Nah. I just like to give him credit for playing a game the best he can and for the work he has done to get better at all the points you are making.
    Bottom line still remains- If CJ was not playing with the confidence and intensity he was playing with last night they lose that game.

    However. Your point is very real. CJ does need to continue to try and find shooters when the defense collapses on him. He should always look for hot hands other than his. When his shot is not falling he should probably be more willing to defer to another shooter but that was not that case last night as when he did their shots didn't fall. I am glad he has picked it up on defense also.
     
  3. tlongII

    tlongII Legendary Poster

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    CJ does what he’s paid to do. Score. And he does it very well. He’s a terrific player and all the trade ideas regarding him on this site that I’ve seen are stupid.
     
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  4. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    First, people act like CJ hasn't improved. I would suggest he has improved every year, just as Dame has. But his style also is his style, and what some people perceive as "faults" are the very things that make him a terrific player. Great players sometimes make bad decisions and take ill-advised shots because they are of the mindset to take those opportunities and they more often lead to positive outcomes rather than negative.

    CJ takes a 1-on-3 by himself. But it's that confidence and his ability to create a shot there than also made him willing to take difficult shots and to make them at other times.

    It's not bad to discuss things we see and want to happen. However, he scored 41 points last night, made a critical defensive play and had a rebound and assist on the winning basket in one of the most-exciting wins in franchise history last night and some fans immediately are downplaying CJ's play and value. And it happens every single good game he plays.

    There's hopes and expectations. There's also reality. Improvement happens over time. Not in the vacuum of what we fans want them to happen.

    And I'm not sure where we went down the path of trading CJ again. I wasn't even discussing that. I was talking about how a number of our fans undervalue the qualities he brings to the table and every time he plays well they wet-blanket it.
     
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  5. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Couple of points to note.

    He only scored 41 because he played 60 minutes.

    Great players work on weaknesses and don't let it affect their strengths.

    Dame became a better passer and decision maker this season. Did it affect his scoring?

    The trade cj i brought up because thats the end game for those on the furthest edge of cj not being the best fit for this team.
     
  6. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    I owe you an apology on that, Nate. I confused you with Bones. Bones made the post that started me off. You replied to my response to him and over the course of the convo I thought it was you who made the original post I was commenting about.
     
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  7. Strenuus

    Strenuus Global Moderator Staff Member Global Moderator

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    And it shocks me people hate on Dame. We can both play that game, can't we?
     
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  8. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    That's completely the wrong question. Great basketball teams share the ball with lits of movement - not iso ball.

    Having different action is a good thing.
     
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  9. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I kind of agree but he has hit several crucial shots...of course, he's launching a hell of a lot of shots. He had 3 great games in the OKC series though

    in this series, CJ has scored 77 points on 76 shots; 1.01 points/shot. Dame has scored 81 points on 62 shots; 1.31 points/shot. Yet for some reason, plenty of people are saying Dame is playing poorly and CJ is playing great (but then Dame is held to a much higher standard), even though, once again, like always, the defense is geared up to stop Dame with doubles, hedges, and traps; meanwhile, CJ gets single coverage, rarely by the best opposing perimeter defender...that's Dame's burden
     
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  10. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Kind of picky, don't you think? I mean there were other guys that played close to 60 minutes or more last night. None of them scored 41.

    I already mentioned that CJ's improved his game. But sometimes it does affect their strengths. If their strength is as a shot-creator and scorer and you tell them you want them to give the ball up more, it's definitely going to affect their strength. I know, not exactly the point you were getting at ... but the point holds. It's like telling Giannis you want him to work on his perimeter shooting and you think it's not going to have an impact on his rebounding or scoring in the paint. It almost certainly will diminish that to some extent.

    You and others create a false equivalency by using Dame. Dame is an extraordinary talent. He's in the most rarified of air in making adjustments and improvement to his game. No one is saying CJ is Dame. But if Dame is your benchmark only a handful of other players are even in the discussion. Someone else in this thread used Durant's absurd playoff stats and Dame's absurd playoff stats to diminish CJ's playoff productivity. If you expect any Blazers' improvement or performance to meet the bar Dame or Durant set, you are never going to be satisfied.

    And I've always said if you trade CJ you need to get someone back of greater or at least equal value, and I don't think there are as many players we could get for him that would make the Blazers a better team. Sometimes it's about fit, not efficiency, and I think we have a lot of fans who don't value what CJ is because they are much too busy taking a magnifying glass to what he is not.
     
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  11. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    TRUE
    FALSE. The vast majority of people who have criticism of CJ is that he doesn't make the right basketball play enough.

    Attacking the basket is good. If players converge, then kick it out to the open player. If they don't, then take the shot.

    He just takes way too many contested, difficult shots. He tends to seek them out.
     
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  12. CupWizier

    CupWizier Well-Known Member

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    No, what you are doing is taking one of the greatest playoff games in the history of the NBA and nit picking ONE player. Was Lillard efficient last night? Denver plays tough defense which has had a lot to do with the team struggling shooting at times just like Denver has struggled due to our defense. I have just never understood after a great game how some want to be a debbie downer. I guess if that's what you enjoy doing knock yourself out, but expect all the responses you have got regarding this thread. Getting all pissy and cussing doesn't accomplish anything does it?
     
  13. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Then you have to change the whole history of basketball.

    There's more than one way to have a great basketball team. More often than not, the teams that win it all have had guys that were outstanding iso players. They still might move a lot with the ball, but if it was all about sharing the ball and moving without it, the Hawks at least would have been in the finals a couple of years ago. The teams with Jordan, Kobe, LeBron and Durant aren't winning mainly because they are moving the ball well. The Spurs might still be good with a serviceable PF instead of Tim Duncan, but they probably aren't winning multiple NBA titles with one of the Morris twins playing on the block instead of him.

    It's a huge asset to having someone who can break down the defense for a couple of reasons. First, if you don't have a guy who can beat his own defender, the defense never has to adjust and rotate and get out of position. You have to rely totally on off-ball screening and movement to get the defenders out of position and off-balance. Second, even if that guy who draws multiple defenders takes a tough shot, he's also given his teammates better offensive rebounding opportunities.
     
  14. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    I think you are mixing up the message. Reading the defense and making the best decision for the highest percentage shot is not the same as give the ball up more.

    I don't disagree with some of the things you have said, other than the foundation of this conversation that its not okay to discuss his faults and how he could/should improve.

    That is what brought me into it.

    I dont agree with everything bones or nate have said. Some yes, some no. But when they are told they should not discuss this and are basically told to just shut up and enjoy the positives, thats where i said to whoa the horses.
    He is fully within his right to break down the plays of the game and point out areas that could use improvement.

    The world isn't always roses and sunshine aNd even on the aftermath of a great game, its okay to discuss how we could have and hope to make it greater next time snd that discussion involves players improving play.

    Or.. nate could start a counter thread about how cj should improve his game so sunshine posters don't have a tissyfit with opposing opinions? (Not saying you had a tissufit)
    Lol just sayin. Nobody should have an issue with Nate's take and if they do the issue i think, is thiers. Not Nates.
     
  15. Hobbesarable

    Hobbesarable Cartoon Character

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    I don't know about you guys, but I'm happy our Blazers won the freaking game!!!

    The weather is lovely today and I just decided to put that in this thread. Time to break out the Wookiee dance! :blazerwookie:
     
  16. royo

    royo Well-Known Member

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    Your post is good and it almost proves CJ did take it to another level. Not that long ago actions you pointed wouldn't take place. So, yes, CJ improved on this field.
    But.
    My problem with CJ is how often he goes from smart player to stupid player.
    I'm so glad that Dame and CJ matured so much and Rain Bros Hero Ball is not the case anymore. Well, at least Dame has grown a lot. CJ? CJ behaviour sometimes remindes me my dog. This dog was smart as hell, but sometimes, just sometimes he couldn't resist that cat he saw. Here is your tunnel vision. It seems like CJ just can't resist sometimes - and that's why, if you ask "did he take it to another level?" I'm with "almost, not quite yet".
    Let alone this Hood play, when he decided he don't see Hood - this was very bad shot, even for CJ.
    Go back to 107:107 and take a look at Hero three he missed. Not only very bad shot, but really why the fuck would you take quick bad three pointer at the over time when you even? This play was just Westbrook and nothing else - and CJ does it - "Well, what the fuck, if I make, Ill be hero". This play was so stupid it was beyond me. I couldn't belive it:)

    So I think Nate has the point - You can not prise CJ for 41 points and just forget his bad plays. Analising bad plays leads to improvment. Blazers got W, CJ scored 41 and good, just don't go tunnel vision on him. His celing is still not there yet.

    Saying this, I love his mad skills and I love having him in our team cos his assassin mode is just pure joy to watch.
     
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  17. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    Sitting on the porch finishing a joint staring at the yard and my phone. Bout to go dig into the yard because no one is commiting to basketball!!!

    Everyones just scared of me dunking on them!!!

    And my yard is really calling my name.
     
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  18. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    @BlazerWookee
    Someone stealing your moves man!!!
     
  19. blazerboy30

    blazerboy30 Well-Known Member

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    False.
    You asses the investment and compare to the probability of a different investment outperforming moving forward.
     
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  20. Orion Bailey

    Orion Bailey Forum Troll

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    A Wallstreet analogy maybe not the best because you know your return there. Not in the nba. Still. When a players value is high your return will generally be better than a player looking like he is regressing.
    So not really false, just variables to consider regarding the situational return, but the rule of thumb is sell high buy low.

    That isn't wrong imo.
     

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