The Miami Experiment

[espn_hall_of_famer]

I've been saying all along that this Miami Experiment with Bosh, Wade and LeBron simply doesn't hold water with me because we've seen this before and it doesn't work as good as it should on paper due to the lack of chemistry these guys usually have.

For one of the first times since the LBJ/Bosh move to Miami, we have a good example of why Miami won't win the title, and that is the fact that Brazil with Alex Garcia, Marcus Souza, Marcelo Huertas, and two NBA role players in Barbosa and Splitter managed to lead the majority of the game yesterday and take them to the final possession (against five all-stars like Rose, Durant, Billups, Odom, etc). It's called chemistry folks.

How many times have we seen this Miami experiment before with similar US teams?

2002 - US Team - beat three times by Argentina, Spain and Yugoslavia with all of 2 max NBA starters on their rosters beat the loaded US team with Pierce, Reggie Miller, Baron Davis, Shawn Marion, Jermaine O'Neal, etc.

2004 - US Olympic team - Beat by Puerto Rico, Lithuania and Argentina, having starters like TIm Duncan, Dwane Wade, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Allen Iverson and Amare.

2006 - US Team - knocked out by Greece with no stars of note that I can remember, but that team had Kobe, Melo, Wade, and LeBron.

So we have a number of examples where fielding a roster of all-star caliber players don't beat out the chemistry of a team that plays team basketball. Not saying the US team will lose half their games or that Miami won't make the playoffs. But don't start giving the US team the gold and don't start thinking Miami is a favorite to get to the finals when all they've got are three star players on the same roster, no history and chemistry to actually translate three great players into wins on the W/L record.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

When have we "seen this before"? You're talking about teams put together to play together for a one time tournament......

This isn't merely a roster of all-star caliber players....its having 2 of the top 3 players in the game with a top 5 PF together......its hardly comparable.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

If anything, I would compare this more to the Shaq-Kobe L*kers. Two of the top players in the game with a bunch of role players.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

This isn't merely a roster of all-star caliber players....its having 2 of the top 3 players in the game with a top 5 PF together......its hardly comparable.

Sorry, I suppose the threesome of Tim Duncan, Dwane Wade and LeBron James that coudn't play team basketball together isn't comparible to "2 of the top 3 players in the game with a top 5 PF together"? I'll have to go see how I can get closer than that.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Sorry, I suppose the threesome of Tim Duncan, Dwane Wade and LeBron James that coudn't play team basketball together isn't comparible to "2 of the top 3 players in the game with a top 5 PF together"? I'll have to go see how I can get closer than that.

For a one time tournament.
In international competition where the rules are different from the NBA.
In a foreign country.
Where they had a summer to practice together.
Where the entire team was composed of all-stars and superstars.
Against teams who have played with each other for years.

and so forth and so on.

 

[Natebishop3]

Bad comparison. LBJ, Wade, and Bosh will have a full training camp, preseason, and regular season to build chemistry. How long has Rose, Billups, Durant, etc played together? A few months? You can't compare the Olympics to an NBA regular season. It's apples to oranges. Yao sucks in Olympic basketball, but he's one of the best players in the league when he's healthy. FIBA is completely different from the NBA.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Bad comparison. LBJ, Wade, and Bosh will have a full training camp, preseason, and regular season to build chemistry. How long has Rose, Billups, Durant, etc played together? A few months? You can't compare the Olympics to an NBA regular season. It's apples to oranges. Yao sucks in Olympic basketball, but he's one of the best players in the league when he's healthy. FIBA is completely different from the NBA.

No, you're mistaken, its the same thing!

 

[Stevenson]

Wilt, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor failed.

Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton tanked

Over-stuffed, jam-packed 2000 era Blazers choked

Just sayin....

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Wilt, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor failed.

Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton tanked

Over-stuffed, jam-packed 2000 era Blazers choked

Just sayin....

sure, NBA championships are never guaranteed. We already all knew that though.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

If anything, I would compare this more to the Shaq-Kobe L*kers. Two of the top players in the game with a bunch of role players.

I won't say that the premise that 82 games will get you some chemistry that we just don't see in the short time span that these guys have in these FIBA games or the Olympics.

But it's the premise by some of these sheep those simply don't understand chemistry that spout off that Miami is somehow a 65+ win team out of the blue by adding two good players.

And I think the biggest difference between Kobe and Shaq is simply Shaq. Shaq was more relevant to the game in his prime than anyone playing today. He single-handedly gave Wade a ring (how many rings does Wade have without riding Shaq coattails?). And Kobe has really struggled to get rings without the help of Shaq, it simply shows the difference a dominant center makes to the game (just like how many rings other teams won without Kareem or Parrish on their teams in the 80s).

I think the Jordan/Pippen comparison would be better since Boston's version of this had Rondo at the PG and had KG/Piece instead of LBJ/Wade (not quite up to that caliber), and LA had Shaq as I mentioned. So Boston with two great wing players and a bunch of role players might be a better fit, but then LBJ/Wade aren't quite up to MJ's level. And most important, even with the Chicago experiement of having two of the best players in the league along with role players, it still took them four years of playing together until that group had the chemistry.

So really the best example of a loaded roster with a couple top-10 players without a dominant center or PG winning a championship came after four years of chemistry.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

What in the world, self-professed math expert? More silly conclusions based on nothing but odd variables.

How long does Team USA practice?
How long is an NBA preseason and season?
How much time will the three have playing before entering the playoffs?

Miami had 47 wins and made the playoffs and just added two of the best players at their position - in the entire league. Ya, right. Doesn't hold water.

I'll give you an example of just a few teams who had three key players who could score and run plays through, who sorta did ok:

2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers

2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers

2007-08 Boston Celtics

2006-07 San Antonio Spurs

2005-06 Miami Heat

2004-05 San Antonio Spurs

2003-04 Detroit Pistons

2002-03 San Antonio Spurs

2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers

2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers

1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers

1998-99 San Antonio Spurs

1997-98 Chicago Bulls

1996-97 Chicago Bulls

1995-96 Chicago Bulls

1994-95 Houston Rockets

1993-94 Houston Rockets

1992-93 Chicago Bulls

1991-92 Chicago Bulls

1990-91 Chicago Bulls

1989-90 Detroit Pistons

1988-89 Detroit Pistons

1987-88 Los Angeles Lakers

1986-87 Los Angeles Lakers

1985-86 Boston Celtics

1984-85 Los Angeles Lakers

1983-84 Boston Celtics

1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers

1981-82 Los Angeles Lakers

1980-81 Boston Celtics

1979-80 Los Angeles Lakers

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

What in the world, self-professed math expert? More silly conclusions based on nothing but odd variables.

How long does Team USA practice?
How long is an NBA preseason and season?
How much time will the three have playing before entering the playoffs?

Miami had 47 wins and made the playoffs and just added two of the best players at their position - in the entire league. Ya, right. Doesn't hold water.

I'll give you an example of just a few teams who had three key players who could score and run plays through, who sorta did ok:

2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers

2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers

2007-08 Boston Celtics

2006-07 San Antonio Spurs

2005-06 Miami Heat

2004-05 San Antonio Spurs

2003-04 Detroit Pistons

2002-03 San Antonio Spurs

2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers

2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers

1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers

1998-99 San Antonio Spurs

1997-98 Chicago Bulls

1996-97 Chicago Bulls

1995-96 Chicago Bulls

1994-95 Houston Rockets

1993-94 Houston Rockets

1992-93 Chicago Bulls

1991-92 Chicago Bulls

1990-91 Chicago Bulls

1989-90 Detroit Pistons

1988-89 Detroit Pistons

1987-88 Los Angeles Lakers

1986-87 Los Angeles Lakers

1985-86 Boston Celtics

1984-85 Los Angeles Lakers

1983-84 Boston Celtics

1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers

1981-82 Los Angeles Lakers

1980-81 Boston Celtics

1979-80 Los Angeles Lakers

Be impossible not to see a post of yours now after your repeated absurd posts and not think, "Need another banana?"

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I won't say that the premise that 82 games will get you some chemistry that we just don't see in the short time span that these guys have in these FIBA games or the Olympics.

But it's the premise by some of these sheep those simply don't understand chemistry that spout off that Miami is somehow a 65+ win team out of the blue by adding two good players.

And I think the biggest difference between Kobe and Shaq is simply Shaq. Shaq was more relevant to the game in his prime than anyone playing today. He single-handedly gave Wade a ring (how many rings does Wade have without riding Shaq coattails?). And Kobe has really struggled to get rings without the help of Shaq, it simply shows the difference a dominant center makes to the game (just like how many rings other teams won without Kareem or Parrish on their teams in the 80s).

I think the Jordan/Pippen comparison would be better since Boston's version of this had Rondo at the PG and had KG/Piece instead of LBJ/Wade (not quite up to that caliber), and LA had Shaq as I mentioned. So Boston with two great wing players and a bunch of role players might be a better fit, but then LBJ/Wade aren't quite up to MJ's level. And most important, even with the Chicago experiement of having two of the best players in the league along with role players, it still took them four years of playing together until that group had the chemistry.

So really the best example of a loaded roster with a couple top-10 players without a dominant center or PG winning a championship came after four years of chemistry.

Yeah, its not instant. But the thing is the talent on the team is unreal because the guys are at their prime and they have really good role players and vets. Guys like Juwan Howard, Big Z, Eddie House, James Jones, Mike Miller, etc...they don't need the glory...just do the little things.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

BTW: you do realize the team also has some legit support players, right?

Ilgauskus: 11/6/4
Haslem: 10/8

House, Chalmers....

I tell you this, math man. You subscribe to some odd numbers....

For someone who works with numbers for a living and stares at the certificates on his office walls, you sure talk in circles. I've seen very few opinions from people who think a title is assured or they go 65 wins. All you state is that you disagree with an opinion that is rarely stated. Weird. Very weird. Too weird.

I am one who thinks they are going to be very, very good. 55-60 regular season wins, good and they turn it on in the playoffs and have a very good chance of winning it all. You have no evidence whatsoever that they won't and can't play with chemistry. Besides, you should know "chemistry" is subjective and all it takes to win is outscoring your opponent. They most certainly have the players to accomplish that on any given night.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

BTW: you do realize the team also has some legit support players, right?

Ilgauskus: 11/6/4
Haslem: 10/8

House, Chalmers....

I tell you this, math man. You subscribe to some odd numbers....

In all fairness now, it was getting a little slow, so I thought I'd throw a topic out. Doesn't mean I ran a quantitative analysis that yielded result to present. In fact, it doesn't even mean I believe the premise. It just means I posted it to see the different reactions to chemistry as from others' views based on their past observations. I think the training camp, pre-season and 82-game regular season is a good take.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

"I've been saying all along that this Miami Experiment with Bosh, Wade and LeBron simply doesn't hold water with me because we've seen this before and it doesn't work..."

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

"I've been saying all along that this Miami Experiment with Bosh, Wade and LeBron simply doesn't hold water with me because we've seen this before and it doesn't work..."

"I've been saying to this group of guys riding in my card all along the drive that this Miami Experiment boat I bought with Bosh, Wade and LeBron painted on the side just doesn't hold water with me because we've seen this type of engine before and it doesn't work..."

How's that, it's all in interpretation.

 

[mook]

I think the Shaq/Kobe Lakers is a pretty good comparison. LeBron/Wade and Shaq/Kobe, with Bosh in the Glen Rice role.

Another one is the second three-peat Bulls. Jordan, Scottie and Rodman. Jordan was a little better than LeBron, Scottie was a little worse than Wade, and Rodman wasn't as good as Bosh.

On paper, it seems like LeBron plays the facilitator role that Pippen played, Wade plays the primary offensive weapon, and Bosh...well, there's probably the big problem with that comparison. Rodman's game was perfectly suited for doing everything but scoring. Bosh's isn't.

At some point I think they'll have to parlay one of these guys into better-suited role players. But I think they can make it work for a year.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

Coo-coo for coco puffs....

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

I think the Shaq/Kobe Lakers is a pretty good comparison. LeBron/Wade and Shaq/Kobe, with Bosh in the Glen Rice role.

Another one is the second three-peat Bulls. Jordan, Scottie and Rodman. Jordan was a little better than LeBron, Scottie was a little worse than Wade, and Rodman wasn't as good as Bosh.

On paper, it seems like LeBron plays the facilitator role that Pippen played, Wade plays the primary offensive weapon, and Bosh...well, there's probably the big problem with that comparison. Rodman's game was perfectly suited for doing everything but scoring. Bosh's isn't.

At some point I think they'll have to parlay one of these guys into better-suited role players. But I think they can make it work for a year.

I suppose the real question when we take teams like the Kobe/Shaq Lakers or the Bulls (or any of Mullet Man's 50 examples) is how many of those teams won a title in the very first year that the star players in question played together? Any of them? The recent Boston team did and that was really the only decent example I could remember, and some say that was a fluke of the East that year and not so much their sheer star power.

As mentioned, MJ and Pippen didn't win one until they had four years of chemistry. Shaq and Kobe didn't win one for like 3-4 years after they began playing together. I'm just not sure we have a lot of examples of loading all-star starters on a team and having them come out of the chute winning a title. Am I missing one there?

 

[Draco]

This Miami team sans injury is going to be great, all-time great. If they have less than 60 wins I'll be shocked. No they arn't guaranteed to win a title, but they are clear favorites in my book.

They have the two best players in the NBA and a third who is top 15. That has never happened before.

 

[Blazer_Mullet_Man]

One would need to compare actual experience in the league - not when player A joined player B.

Did Drexler upset the Rockets chemistry? How did Houston do pre-Drex and post-Drex / post-Thorpe?

There are 101 examples that would appear to disprove ALL your theories...besides, Miami isn't an experiment. An experiment is "NOUN: 1a. A test under controlled conditions that is made to demonstrate a known truth, examine the validity of a hypothesis, or determine the efficacy of something previously untried."

We simply have three out of the best ten players in the league joining forces with a well-rounded supporting cast in Miami - which makes them a legit contender. It should be fun. I can't wait to see how the season unfolds. And no, self-professed math-man with many degrees on his office wall who gets paid to crunch numbers, you HAVE NOT seen this before.

 

[espn_hall_of_famer]

One would need to compare actual experience in the league - not when player A joined player B.

Did Drexler upset the Rockets chemistry? How did Houston do pre-Drex and post-Drex / post-Thorpe?

There are 101 examples that would appear to disprove ALL your theories...besides, Miami isn't an experiment. An experiment is "NOUN: 1a. A test under controlled conditions that is made to demonstrate a known truth, examine the validity of a hypothesis, or determine the efficacy of something previously untried."

We simply have three out of the best ten players in the league joining forces with a well-rounded supporting cast in Miami - which makes them a legit contender. It should be fun. I can't wait to see how the season unfolds. And no, self-professed math-man with many degrees on his office wall who gets paid to crunch numbers, you HAVE NOT seen this before.

Good point on Drex. I think he did come in and they immediately won.

And 101 examples to disprove ALL of my theories is pretty good since I think I'm up to 1.7M published theories now. That's a pretty low rate of disapproval.

But I'll agree with you that we really haven't seen THIS experiement before as it is a first of its kind and will be fun to sit back and watch what direction it goes since we've not seen the like of players in their primes like this. But you'd also have to agree that we simply HAVE NOT seen seen the likes of Oden's situation in the league with a series of non-soft tissue injuries that technically should be 100% and have no future impact, yet we all are holding are breath because we haven't seen this before and don't know.

 

[illmatic99]

The US International teams that you pointed outwere together for a period of two months... max. Bad comparison.

I fully expect this trio to win 4-5 titles if they stay together long enough. The rest of the league is screwed. I also expect LBJ to average close to a triple double (if you think about drafting KD or Cp3 over him in fantasy, you're nuts). His amazing passing skills will be even more magnified in MIA.

Edit: Also, the losses you pointed out were single games. If they played a seven game series, the result would not be in question.

 

[THE HCP]

I think this Miami team will be unstoppable! Sorry, but 'Bron and Wade are so heads and above better then everybody else it's silly! Channing Frye told me once that playing against LeBron is like playing against a high school kid when your in 5th grade! These guys are going to just toy with other squads. Sorry, but I am one the believes an over abundance of talent can make up for a lack of chemistry! New School way of thinkin' I guess!

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I'm skeptical.

Bottom line is that they still have to win it on the floor and have to share one basketball. I have no doubt they will win 56+ gas, but I'm not conceeding anything until they actually win it all. There have been very talented teams that didn't win, or maybe one title. The Chamberlain Laker teams, the Dr J 76'ers... and others. Granted, they one one title each, but had the nucleus of the team for 4 or 5 years.

So maybe they'll win the next 12 titles or maybe none at all.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Miami will have the ref advantage even in road games, gg.

 

[Natebishop3]

Wilt, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor failed.

Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton tanked

Over-stuffed, jam-packed 2000 era Blazers choked

Just sayin....

Payton and Malone were well past their prime. LBJ/Wade/Bosh are just entering their prime.

The 2000 Blazers didn't have a legit superstar. Pippen would have counted, but he was past his prime as well. There just wasn't anyone to take over the game when they started to misfire in game 7 of the WCF. The Heat have Wade OR LeBron.

 

[RipCityInsider]

Why does the OP completely ignore USA Basketball's latest gold medal consisting of LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh?

 

[Nikolokolus]

Why does the OP completely ignore USA Basketball's latest gold medal consisting of LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh?

Not only that but citing FIBA tournaments where there are far fewer fouls called, no defensive 3 seconds, and an absolute need for shooters to break zones it's no wonder that NBA style isolation offenses have foundered in international play; it's basketball, but it's almost an apples to oranges comparison to say, that because the US has struggled with superstar laden teams in international play this Miami team is going to struggle too.

Miami is going to fucking roll through the regular season, the only team that will give them trouble is maybe Orlando or the Lakers in the playoffs.